Pope Francis faces church divided over doctrine, global poll of Catholics finds

[frobert]

Perhaps I’m not fully understanding your point, frobert, but a Servant of God once accurately pointed out that we are to be merciless to the errors of man’s mind. Confrontation aside, the Church must be the uncompromising bulwark of true charity which only wants the very best for our neighbor which is eternal life. That everlasting happiness must be sought through the purity of divine revelation and objective truth is non-negotiable in moral matters. My favorite quote, once again with my added emphasis:

I am sure that the Servant of God had good intentions but I can’t helped being reminded of an old joke in the medical field that goes something like this:

The operation was a success, it’s just too bad the patient died.

Seriously, if the sinner turns to you in hostility when you confront/accuse him of errors can you blame him? God placed in each of us a spark of goodness and most people are ambivalent when they act in a contradiction to it. That spark can be used as leverage for positive change without confrontation.

The Holy Father desires a pastoral approach which is necessary in order not to alienate, and unfortunately this is being misinterpreted by some to say he means to “fix” the division over doctrine through capitulation to error. This can never happen.

The Holy Father is wise beyond our comprehension. Neither he nor I am advocating changing doctrine. I believe that any attempt to fix it would cause a second protestant revolution within the CC.

 

[rcwitness]

Although valid Baptism does put one in a certain although imperfect communion with the Church, one does not become a member of the Catholic Church until one is received into it by a priest, if one was not baptized a Catholic.

Do you have reference for this?

What, specifically, do you mean by “received into it by a priest”?

Thanks
Michael

 

[Elizium23]

Do you have reference for this?

What, specifically, do you mean by “received into it by a priest”?

Thanks
Michael

She means the Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the full Communion of the Catholic Church. This is ordinarily officiated by a priest. I do not know if it can be validly performed by a deacon or layperson.

 

[rcwitness]

The Church says anyone who has been baptised Catholic remains Catholic. There are no degrees of membership.

Apparently there are degrees of communion.

Although valid Baptism does put one in a certain although imperfect communion with the Church, one does not become a member of the Catholic Church until one is received into it by a priest, if one was not baptized a Catholic.

Provided they BELIEVE.

She means the Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the full Communion of the Catholic Church. This is ordinarily officiated by a priest. I do not know if it can be validly performed by a deacon or layperson.

I personally did go through these rites of initiation. I guess I considered these Instruction and prayers in order to be Confirmed and receive Eucharist.

So, like the Church expresses, those Baptized Christians who are raised into a community outside the full Communion of Rome are seperated brothers and sisters, yet share a common communion of the Word of God. These have the gift of eternal life and the Holy Spirit.

My curiosity is what is the difference with these Protestants and the formal members who went through the Sacraments and yet protest in their betrayal of the faith they received?

These “Catholics” are a much greater problem than Protestants! I consider the genuine Protestants more Catholic than these.

Michael

 

[TRH1292]

Apparently there are degrees of communion.

Provided they BELIEVE.

I personally did go through these rites of initiation. I guess I considered these Instruction and prayers in order to be Confirmed and receive Eucharist.

So, like the Church expresses, those Baptized Christians who are raised into a community outside the full Communion of Rome are seperated brothers and sisters, yet share a common communion of the Word of God. These have the gift of eternal life and the Holy Spirit.

My curiosity is what is the difference with these Protestants and the formal members who went through the Sacraments and yet protest in their betrayal of the faith they received?

These “Catholics” are a much greater problem than Protestants! I consider the genuine Protestants more Catholic than these.

Michael

Generally people only say “Protestants” to refer to members of protestant churches.

A Catholic who refuses to believe in the teachings of the Church is a “dissenting Catholic”, or more properly simply a heretic.

 

[rcwitness]

Generally people only say “Protestants” to refer to members of protestant churches.

A Catholic who refuses to believe in the teachings of the Church is a “dissenting Catholic”, or more properly simply a heretic.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wish these polls would acknowledge that!

Sincerely
Michael

 

[HCTC]

Just FYI:

Heresy is an interesting term with a variety of definitions and distinctions. The word “heresy” is from the Greek αἵρεσις and originally meant “choice” or “thing chosen.” I like a conceptual definition: A person who in a matter concerning religious dogma asserts that there is choice.

The entomology of the term “dogma” is also interesting. Dogma derives from Greek δόγμα “that which seems to one, opinion or belief” and that from δοκέω (dokeo), “to think, to suppose, to imagine”. By the First a Century “dogma” came to signify laws or ordinances adjudged and imposed upon others.

 

[Tigg]

Just FYI:

Heresy is an interesting term with a variety of definitions and distinctions. The word “heresy” is from the Greek αἵρεσις and originally meant “choice” or “thing chosen.” I like a conceptual definition: A person who in a matter concerning religious dogma asserts that there is choice.

AKA a moral relativist.

 

[Tigg]

Seriously, if the sinner turns to you in hostility when you confront/accuse him of errors can you blame him? God placed in each of us a spark of goodness and most people are ambivalent when they act in a contradiction to it. That spark can be used as leverage for positive change without confrontation.

I don’t really disagree with you, and if you read carefully, you will see that I specifically said “confrontation aside” in my post. The point of the quote was a caution that in our defense of the faith we are not advancing the cause for good by a compromising attitude toward doctrine and there is no real charity without truth.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I didn’t see this after skimming through. Here is the PDF to the full Univision poll broken down by country.

 

[HCTC]

?.. The point of the quote was a caution that in our defense of the faith we are not advancing the cause for good by a compromising attitude toward doctrine and there is no real charity without truth.

1 Corinthians
"11 When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways.

12 Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.

13 As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love."

 

[Tomdstone]

A Catholic who refuses to believe in the teachings of the Church is a “dissenting Catholic”, or more properly simply a heretic.

Considering the issue of ABC or the pill, what percentage of Catholics today would you say are heretics ?
Is it OK to be a heretic, or is it a mortal sin?

 

[Tigg]

Considering the issue of ABC or the pill, what percentage of Catholics today would you say are heretics ?
Is it OK to be a heretic, or is it a mortal sin?

The fact that a large percentage of Catholics reject church teaching is totally irrelevant. We are not allowed to call them heretics, and regardless the number, they do not affect objective truth in any manner. But one does need to understand the nature of heresy as the teachings of Christ are inter-connected. Once one doctrine is rejected, how easy and logical in the mind of man to think his own “truth” is correct and reject other teachings on the basis of personal opinion.

 

[Tigg]

1 Corinthians
"11 When I was a child, I used to talk like a child, and see things as a child does, and think like a child; but now that I have become an adult, I have finished with all childish ways.

12 Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.

13 As it is, these remain: faith, hope and love, the three of them; and the greatest of them is love."

and what is love? A sentiment? A feeling based upon our particular emotion at the time? Lord, spare me my emotions and prompt me to do acts of charity based upon sound and right judgment. Do not let me base any decision upon the capricious nature of feelings. How unwise to practice this kind of false charity - it is “religion” posing as an imposter.

 

[HCTC]

and what is love? A sentiment? A feeling based upon our particular emotion at the time? Lord, spare me my emotions and prompt me to do acts of charity based upon sound and right judgment. Do not let me base any decision upon the capricious nature of feelings. How unwise to practice this kind of false charity - it is “religion” posing as an imposter.

Matthew, Chapter 22

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35 and one of them [a scholar of the law]* tested him by asking,
36 “Teacher,* which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him,* “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

 

[zz912]

and what is love? A sentiment? A feeling based upon our particular emotion at the time? Lord, spare me my emotions and prompt me to do acts of charity based upon sound and right judgment. Do not let me base any decision upon the capricious nature of feelings. How unwise to practice this kind of false charity - it is “religion” posing as an imposter.

 

[zz912]

Matthew, Chapter 22

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35 and one of them [a scholar of the law]* tested him by asking,
36 “Teacher,* which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him,* “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

So what is love? Is it an emotion?

 

[Tigg]

Matthew, Chapter 22

34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35 and one of them [a scholar of the law]* tested him by asking,
36 “Teacher,* which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him,* “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Quoting passages from scripture about “love” is not to be interpreted that we must “feel” love. True charity comes from the conviction of belief (the doctrinal aspect) which then causes us to act as God (Who is love personified) has taught and commanded us to do in charity as His followers.

 

[HCTC]

So what is love? Is it an emotion?

ZZ & Tigg, if the division in the Church is between those who know what Jesus meant when He said:
37 “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

and those who really need to have the word “love” defined for them, then that division is far more serious than anyone imagines…

1 Corinthians

1 Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.

3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.

 

[Tigg]

ZZ & Tigg, if the division in the Church is between those who know what Jesus meant when He said:
37 “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it:* You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

and those who really need to have the word “love” defined for them, then that division is far more serious than anyone imagines…

1 Corinthians

1 Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing.

2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing.

3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever.

Sorry, I find this to be a non-answer in light of my post #98.