Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

[Tony2255]

Yes we should help the poor. The Church is literally the home of Christ, the Son. Literally. Literally. Every Priest touches Christ literally. How did you dress for your wedding? Every mass is bigger than your wedding because Jesus is really present.

I’m not trying to be a stubborn mule here, but there is more to this discussion than the poor. Serving the poor is necessary; serving Christ is more necessary. Thankfully they are not contradictory.

Scripture and the Church teach that forms matter. You can’t lay that aside without laying the truth aside.

I wore my dress blues and my wife a white dress she made from her moms old wedding dress. My entire wedding cost $200.

That aside, where does Christ ask us to serve him wearing gold and expensive garb? I remember him saying sell your possessions pick up your cross and follow me. I don’t need riches to serve Him. Some of the first masses were held in catacombs.

 

[oldcelt]

I like this guy a lot from everything I have heard about him. Simple, humble, down to earth with a good sense of humor. Many people view Popes, Archbishops, and Cardinals as out of touch elitists who tell everyone else how to live and do differently themselves. I think that Pope Francis will change that view; it’s very damaging to the Church and off-putting to people who might be interested in joining it.

I second that

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Exactly! He dressed for the occasion! So should we. For we have one greater than Moses and Elijah at every mass.

I work 24 and 48 hour shifts. I have, at times, had to be creative to attend Mass. I got off one shift and did not have time to make it home to shower, and change. I wore my uniform, sat in the back, and apologized to the priest as I was leaving. He said, ‘nonsense, you gave your two coins just like the woman in the homily.’

My wife works at the local hospital, and sometimes has to wear her scrubs to the Mass. I’ve been through this before on these forums, and don’t think anyone can change my mind. We go to meet with Christ and are more concerned with what He can see, than what other people can see.

Now, let’s think of the poor that Pope Francis refers to. Should we be concerned with how they dress, as long as it’s not provocative? I’d rather see someone show up to see the Lord, than stay away because of how they are dressed, or because they feel they are not dressed worthy enough.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I wore my dress blues and my wife a white dress she made from her moms old wedding dress. My entire wedding cost $200.

That aside, where does Christ ask us to serve him wearing gold and expensive garb? I remember him saying sell your possessions pick up your cross and follow me. I don’t need riches to serve Him. Some of the first masses were held in catacombs.

For shame, you should have given that 200 dollars to the poor. You had a pair of jeans and a t shirt, didn’t you?

Certainly if we have nothing, our worship is acceptable naked. Moreso, that we worship under the pain of severe poverty.

But if you do have wealth on loan from God, then it is appropriate to have appropriate attire and to see that the Church has appropriate forms to assist the faithful to give glory to God. Scripture does back this up. See my previous posts. Forms matter.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

A lot of emphasis on forms and vestments here at the end of all things…

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

I work 24 and 48 hour shifts. I have, at times, had to be creative to attend Mass. I got off one shift and did not have time to make it home to shower, and change. I wore my uniform, sat in the back, and apologized to the priest as I was leaving. He said, ‘nonsense, you gave your two coins just like the woman in the homily.’

My wife works at the local hospital, and sometimes has to wear her scrubs to the Mass. I’ve been through this before on these forums, and don’t think anyone can change my mind. We go to meet with Christ and are more concerned with what He can see, than what other people can see.

Now, let’s think of the poor that Pope Francis refers to. Should we be concerned with how they dress, as long as it’s not provocative? I’d rather see someone show up to see the Lord, than stay away because of how they are dressed, or because they feel they are not dressed worthy enough.

We’ve moved from whether a Pope should have vestments to the destitute attending mass.
I think many devout poor come better dressed than wealthy folks to mass!
Situations matter, but forms matter. Scripture is posted in this thread. Church doctrine is clear: The very sacraments are by definition forms, physical conduits of grace.

You cannot say that dress does not matter. You can say situations mean sacrifice of some forms some times, but to say dress (forms) are not important has been shown by Church and Scripture: form and liturgy matters to God. (so it matters to me)

I had not really meant to be addressing the laity coming to mass. We’ve moved a bit off topic.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

We’ve moved from whether a Pope should have vestments to the destitute attending mass.
I think many devout poor come better dressed than wealthy folks to mass!
Situations matter, but forms matter. Scripture is posted in this thread. Church doctrine is clear: The very sacraments are by definition forms, physical conduits of grace.

You cannot say that dress does not matter. You can say situations mean sacrifice of some forms some times, but to say dress (forms) are not important has been shown by Church and Scripture: form and liturgy matters to God. (so it matters to me)

I have not really been addressing the laity coming to mass. You’ve moved a bit off topic.

Sorry.

The incident we’re speaking about was not the Mass.

 

[Megan7]

Any thoughts on this? I was actually quite sad and disappointed…I felt it was rather untactile…

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

Thanks for the link & thread.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Sorry.

The incident we’re speaking about was not the Mass.

Agreed, it was liturgical, though.

In point of fact though, I have to go to bed to get up for mass.

 

[Marie5890]

None of us here have been called to the Petrine ministry and likely will never be. Perhaps some are disappointed in who has been called by the Spirit thrum the Cardinal electors
Perhaps some believe a mistake was made.

Either way we have Pope Francis. He has been called. He in his conscience will live out his ministry the way he feels lead by the spirit. He is a Jesuit. He lives a simple life. Its not for us to dictate how things should be done or run.

He is not committing anything sinful nor leading the church astray by living out a more simple Petrine ministry. Its not sinful no matter how deeply and profoundly disappointed some are.

 

[LilyM]

I understand they were already made. I too like some of the beauty to the mass added by the vestments. But it isn’t mandated. Considering the economic distress the world is experiencing I think it wise to also tone down the regal appearance in accordance. I think if toning down our appearance draws people to the Church that’s a good thing.

White as the light clothes seem more on the spectacular side than the simple side to me.

‘White as the light’ doesn’t refer to colour, it refers to His inner spiritual glory radiating and transfiguring His entire appearance. It most particularly does not refer to gold, silver, jewels, expensive fabric or costly and ornate embroidery.

For heaven’s sake can we not let the man decide what he wants to wear or not wear? At least on this one occasion? Yes, the first appearance of a new Pope is a solemn occasion, but it is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and as far as I know there are few if any rules laid down as far as vesture goes.

It’s not like His Holiness turned up for Mass the following day in rags and tatters, so he seems to understand the importance of giving due glory to Christ by appropriate attire - when it is important to do so. Which is not all the time.

 

[Tony2255]

For shame, you should have given that 200 dollars to the poor. You had a pair of jeans and a t shirt, didn’t you?

Petty and sad. I had very little and you mock it.

 

[jwinch2]

People are creating a false equivalence when it comes to what the Pope wears and any relationship between humility or helping the poor. The truth of the matter is that we can wish to help the poor and wish to give our best to God at the same time, and we should.

To set our duty to serve the poor against the splendor of divine worship is nothing less than to split Christ in two. Fr. Pius Pietrzyk, OP

Furthermore, humility is not an external thing, it is an internal thing. Here is some good catechesis on it by one of Pope Francis’ fellow Jesuits.

Saint Laurence Justinian says that nobody knows well what humility is, but he who has received the gift thereof from God; that it is of itself very hard to be known, and that there is nothing in which man deceives himself so much as in the knowing what true humility is.

You think, says he, that it consists in saying, you are a sinner, and a miserable creature. If it consisted in that, nothing in the world would be easier; we should all be humble, for we all speak in that manner, and God grant, we believe what we say, and that our words on the occasion are not mere matter of form.

You think that humility consists also in wearing plain clothes, and in employing yourself in mean and despicable offices; by no means—there may still lurk a great deal of pride at bottom. It may very well happen, that by adopting this mode you wish to distinguish yourself from others, and to pass for a better and more humble man than they, and so all may be but a sort of refined pride. Note that these exterior things, as I shall hereafter shew, contribute much to true humility, when they are made use of as they ought, but, after all, it does not consist therein.

“Many,” says Saint Jerome, “embrace the shadow and appearance of humility, but few embrace humility itself.” It is very easy to look down upon the ground, to speak in a humble tone, to fetch a sigh or two, now and then, and to own one’s self a sinner and a miserable creature at every word; but, if you say any thing to these persons which may hurt their feelings in the least, you will see how far they are from true humility. “Let, therefore,” adds Saint Jerome, “all feigned and affected language be dropped; it is patience that shows a man to be truly humble”; it is that which is the touch-stone of humility.

Saint Bernard explains more particularly in what this virtue consists, and gives this definition of it. “Humility,” says he, “is a virtue whereby a man, from a true knowledge of himself, becomes vile in his own eyes.” Humility consists not therefore in words, nor in the exterior; it consists in the sentiments of the heart, in having a low and mean opinion of ourselves founded on the deep sense we have of our own nothingness; and in desiring to be despised by all the world.
Alonso Rodriguez [SJ]
The Exercise of Perfection and Christian Virtues
1609

People are saying that the Pope has the right to do this, or the right to do that, and he doesn’t have to wear these things if he doesn’t want to. That is partially correct. He does have the authority to do certain things. However, the office of St. Peter does not belong to him and some things related to the office have become part of Church tradition and as such, are not his to change. He was elected to it, but he could have refused. Since he did not, there are certain expectations regarding the dignity of the office that must be respected, and embraced if he is going to effectively exercise the petrine ministry. True humility, as noted above by Fr. Rodriguez, is not an external thing. It would also be an act of humility on the part of the Holy Father for him to accept certain aspects of the Papal office that he might not prefer, because in doing so, he subjects himself to the traditions established by the Popes who went before him, in whose line he now serves.

From a purely practical and standpoint and for a small dose of reality, If I showed up to Mass in the Sistine Chapel wearing tennis shoes, I would be accused of being irreverent, and rightly so. I am a professor. This means that I am expected to show up at graduation ceremonies a couple of times per year in my academic regalia. Frankly, I think it looks stupid, and is ridiculous. I would be far more comfortable in a coat and tie, or something even more comfortable than that. But here’s the thing. It isn’t up to me. Even if I were the president of the university it would not be up to me. There are traditions which have been established and norms that are expected by those who come to see their kids, by fellow faculty, etc. The Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ, also has certain expectations that are placed upon him in terms of what he wears at Church events whether it be the Mass, or something else. This is part of what he accepted when he said yes.

 

[DlandFan06]

Any thoughts on this? I was actually quite sad and disappointed…I felt it was rather untactile…

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I just want to make sure that he wont deviate from Church teachings in any way, shape or form.

 

[WildCatholic]

That aside, where does Christ ask us to serve him wearing gold and expensive garb? I remember him saying sell your possessions pick up your cross and follow me. I don’t need riches to serve Him. Some of the first masses were held in catacombs.

All the vestments are nice, but are they necessary in the sense that we don’t have a church without them? I think Christ would rather our traditions of Holy Mass and Holy Communion continue, even if our vestments were destroyed beyond recognition. There is nothing wrong with simplicity as long as it is orthodox, and I think Francis will continue that

 

[Robyn_p]

Didn’t all popes before John Paul the First wear the papal tiara, which he did away with. And John Paul 2 dressed differently than him. He dressed pretty simply as far as I remember too. Pope Benedict dressed different than him as well. All were incredibly holy, strong popes, but completely different men, and had different styles. But all were deeply in love with Jesus and his Church, and I believe we have the same thing in Pope Francis. Sorry not believe, I know.

We really should be celebrating! Literally, in the last one hundred years, when the world has fallen so far from God, He’s risen up so many holy, strong men for the papacy!!! Pope Pius X, XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis.

Lets give the guy a break! He’s been Pope for three days, hasn’t had a chance to do anything really yet. Give him a few months to settle into his new role, it must be overwhelming! I do really believe this man was given to us by the Holy Spirit, lets pray for him instead of worry about how he’s different than Benedict, that’s always the best thing.

P.S.
I’m not saying vestments are bad. I love them! I’ve had to defend vestments from some of my family members who don’t like them. But it’s not like Francis is wearing blue jeans and a tshirt He still wears vestments at Mass, which is where it matters most right?

 

[Tony2255]

From a purely practical and standpoint and for a small dose of reality, If I showed up to Mass in the Sistine Chapel wearing tennis shoes, I would be accused of being irreverent, and rightly so. I am a professor. This means that I am expected to show up at graduation ceremonies a couple of times per year in my academic regalia. Frankly, I think it looks stupid, and is ridiculous. I would be far more comfortable in a coat and tie, or something even more comfortable than that. But here’s the thing. It isn’t up to me. Even if I were the president of the university it would not be up to me. There are traditions which have been established and norms that are expected by those who come to see their kids, by fellow faculty, etc. The Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ, also has certain expectations that are placed upon him in terms of what he wears at Church events whether it be the Mass, or something else. This is part of what he accepted when he said yes.

You think that humility consists also in wearing plain clothes, and in employing yourself in mean and despicable offices; by no means—there may still lurk a great deal of pride at bottom. It may very well happen, that by adopting this mode you wish to distinguish yourself from others, and to pass for a better and more humble man than they, and so all may be but a sort of refined pride. Note that these exterior things, as I shall hereafter shew, contribute much to true humility, when they are made use of as they ought, but, after all, it does not consist therein.

It may it doesn’t say don’t. It depends on the reasons you’re wearing it.

Who said anything about wearing tennis shoes. Wear a suit but that suit doesn’t have to be Giorgio Armani.

 

[DlandFan06]

Didn’t all popes before John Paul the First wear the papal tiara, which he did away with. And John Paul 2 dressed differently than him. He dressed pretty simply as far as I remember too. Pope Benedict dressed different than him as well. All were incredibly holy, strong popes, but completely different men, and had different styles. But all were deeply in love with Jesus and his Church, and I believe we have the same thing in Pope Francis. Sorry not believe, I know.

We really should be celebrating! Literally, in the last one hundred years, when the world has fallen so far from God, He’s risen up so many holy, strong men for the papacy!!! Pope Pius X, XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis.

Lets give the guy a break! He’s been Pope for three days, hasn’t had a chance to do anything really yet. Give him a few months to settle into his new role, it must be overwhelming! I do really believe this man was given to us by the Holy Spirit, lets pray for him instead of worry about how he’s different than Benedict, that’s always the best thing.

P.S.
I’m not saying vestments are bad. I love them! I’ve had to defend vestments from some of my family members who don’t like them. But it’s not like Francis is wearing blue jeans and a tshirt He still wears vestments at Mass, which is where it matters most right?

Quick question though, weren’t there problems with Pope John XXIII? I heard some people say that he wasn’t strong on things. I know, I know, I heard things, but just want to be sure that Francis doesn’t go that way.

 

[mercytruth]

As the only absolute monarch of Europe, Pope Francis was probably uncomfortable wearing regalia representing temporal power.

Pope Francis seems to be a shepherd with a bishop’s heart. He is more inclined to wear the Papal vestments denoting his spiritual authority, and not his temporal authority.

Vatican City State is governed as an absolute monarchy. The Head of State is the Pope who holds full legislative, executive and judicial powers.

vaticanstate.va/content/v…llo-stato.html

 

[Elizabeth502]

I don’t believe that this incident ever actually occurred. It doesn’t sound plausible.

I agree. The sentence “Carnival Time is over” seems completely unlike anyone of that stature, incluidng him with his personality. Rather disrespectful and difficult to believe.

I do believe it’s the usual fanciful media with time on their hands, eager to create sensationalism. Honestly, half of the people in “journalism” are frustrated creative writers. (Or so it seems. That’s merely based on observation on my part!) And probably the other half are really good but get edited by those in charge of the Re-education Camps.