Pope Francis' first moves hint at break with past

[LilyM]

People are saying that the Pope has the right to do this, or the right to do that, and he doesn’t have to wear these things if he doesn’t want to. That is partially correct. He does have the authority to do certain things. However, the office of St. Peter does not belong to him and some things related to the office have become part of Church tradition and as such, are not his to change. He was elected to it, but he could have refused. Since he did not, there are certain expectations regarding the dignity of the office that must be respected, and embraced if he is going to effectively exercise the petrine ministry. True humility, as noted above by Fr. Rodriguez, is not an external thing. It would also be an act of humility on the part of the Holy Father for him to accept certain aspects of the Papal office that he might not prefer, because in doing so, he subjects himself to the traditions established by the Popes who went before him, in whose line he now serves.

From a purely practical and standpoint and for a small dose of reality, If I showed up to Mass in the Sistine Chapel wearing tennis shoes, I would be accused of being irreverent, and rightly so.

Of course the office, apart from the restrictions placed upon it by Canon Law and such, and more importantly the Pope’s obligations to God, belongs to the office holder. Who else does it belong to? Not you or me. Not the Cardinals or Bishops or Curia. Not even His Holiness’ predecessors in the office, with every due respect to them.

Who is talking about dressing inappropriately? I never saw any tennis shoes or any equivalent thereof. He has always been perfectly properly presented on the balcony and on every other occasion on which I have seen him since.

True, he did not don one or more of the optional but traditional garments. Which is like criticising a bride for wearing flowers in her hair but not a full length veil with them,or a groom for wearing a perfecrly good and appropriate suit because it happens not to be a tuxedo. Such optional items are matters of taste, and people can be perfectly properly dressed without wearing ALL of them!

 

[quiet52]

Reading the comments on this thread about the “threads” Pope Francis chose to wear made me smile.

I was thinking that Pope Francis might have been thinking of and fervently praying to St. Francis of Assisi as he prepared to present himself to the crowds at the Vatican and to his flock worldwide via television. He might have thought of the irony in the situation: St. Francis of A’s father was a cloth merchant, and he was distressed about his son’s newfound religious fervor, having expected that his son would follow in his footsteps. His son had sold off some of the textiles, and, after hearing our Lord tell him to repair His Church, unsuccessfully tried to give the money to a priest, for the repair of his crumbling church. Soon after that incident, Francis’s father dragged him to the bishop, so that the bishop could order Francis to pay off all his debts to his father, and talk some sense into him. What did his son do? He stripped off his clothes and, buck naked, proclaimed that our heavenly Father is all his wealth. He believed that if he detached himself from the world by owning nothing, he would owe nothing to the world except to love and to serve our Lord Jesus and His holy Church. The bishop embraced Frances and covered him with the cloak he was wearing.

Our new pontiff has worn his own bishop’s cloak since 1992, and, last Wednesday, as he donned another cloak as Bishop of Rome, he was embraced by our Lord’s holy Church as her new Vicar of Christ.

Long story short … we can find multiple dimensions of spiritual meaning within the Church’s vestments and her many, many other sacramentals. Our traditions, old and recent, are rich and beautiful, and help us to give glory to God.

 

[ATeNumquam]

I think that I can see both sides, I like to think that Catholics take care of their Pope, that they want him to look good in front of the world and if the garments seem a little ostentacious well, it’s okay because he is the leader of a very large group of people.
On the other hand, Pope Francis seems to be a person who moves around a lot, he knows how to use public transportation, he knows how to fix his own meals and he likes it that way. For this kind of man having to sit for long periods of time would be extremely difficult and finally, as I said before, I think he’s a man’s man and doesn’t want to dress in fine clothes. This is not a criticism of any other Pope…but I say, let him decide on his clothes, he’ll be serving us in countless ways, leave him alone as to some of these personal decisions, and if he turns from some of the old ways that doesn’t make the old ways wrong, just different from the kind of Pope he wants to be.

I think this is a very balanced view - well it rings true for me! Thank you for this!

 

[mercytruth]

I agree. The sentence “Carnival Time is over” seems completely unlike anyone of that stature, incluidng him with his personality. Rather disrespectful and difficult to believe.

I do believe it’s the usual fanciful media with time on their hands, eager to create sensationalism. Honestly, half of the people in “journalism” are frustrated creative writers. (Or so it seems. That’s merely based on observation on my part!) And probably the other half are really good but get edited by those in charge of the Re-education Camps.

I do not think it is beyond the realm of possibility that Pope Francis said this…

The Vatican and the Church have an identity crisis it would seem to me. She wants to present the Pope as the spiritual leader of the universal church.

At the same time, the Pope is the absolute monarch of the Vatican City State, overseeing the Vatican Bank and the wealth of the Vatican City State.

I think, like the Queen of England, the Pope’s role as absolute monarch is in title only.
The actual administrative governance of the Vatican City State is in effect decided by the Curia… especially, the governance of the finances of the Vatican City State.

I think Pope Francis realizes this. The ‘carnival time’ is pretending he is the absolute monarch of the finances of the Vatican City State, when in fact, it is Curia which has the power to choose the lay president of the Vatican bank under the leadership of the commission of five cardinals, (three of whom are of the Curia).

We know what temptation it was for Judas to hold the money bag. “Reform of the Curia” maybe an impossible task for Pope Francis without becoming the absolute monarch of the Vatican Bank and the Vatican finances.

May the will of God prevail.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Petty and sad. I had very little and you mock it.

I am not mocking you. I am saying you wore nice clothes for your wedding! It’s easy to wear nice clothes (available at any thrift shop) for mass. There’s no need for people to show up like they are going to the beach.

Just as you wore appropriate attire to your wedding, so there is appropriate attire for the priest at Church.

Please take it up with the Bible, not me. I’ve posted a ton of scripture that forms matter.

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

‘White as the light’ doesn’t refer to colour, it refers to His inner spiritual glory radiating and transfiguring His entire appearance. It most particularly does not refer to gold, silver, jewels, expensive fabric or costly and ornate embroidery.
.

The transfiguration was a real event. The appearance of his clothes was real. Just as His attire was described in Revelations.

Forget about the specific issue that started the thread for a moment.

Nowhere am I saying that gold and jewels are required. I am saying that vestments matter, that the Church’s beauty pleases God. That our sacraments are rooted in matter.

The Incarnation is God telling us that our bodies matter. It is not only the thought that counts. God chose to work within the physical world. He could have willed reality to be corrected from our fault.

This is not about poor or rich, have or have not. This is about how we relate to God. Vestments and liturgical actions whisper of a deeper reality.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Quick question though, weren’t there problems with Pope John XXIII? I heard some people say that he wasn’t strong on things. I know, I know, I heard things, but just want to be sure that Francis doesn’t go that way.

He called the Second Vatican Council–how strong do people want him to be? Some people, however, don’t like Vatican II, and that will reflect their opinion of the Pope.

And yes, I know the difference between not liking Vatican II and not liking the interpretation of Vatican II.

 

[Brendan_64]

As a Church we need, to a degree, a break with the past. Our Church organisation is not in a healthy state at the moment, and this sin’t helped by what is perceived (often wrongly) to be too much ostentation and self-importance.

Pope Francis is will favour humility and simplicity (he is a Jesuit after all and one who has come from a background of poverty). I think there are a whole lot of things that are far more important for our Church than worrying about what colour of trim the Pope wears on his garments. I wonder did Jesus worry about what he or his Apostles wore?

More humility and less pomposity, Pope Francis is quite right to take this approach.

I think Pope Francis will be a major force for much needed change and reform within our Church.

 

[Brendan_64]

He called the Second Vatican Council–how strong do people want him to be? Some people, however, don’t like Vatican II, and that will reflect their opinion of the Pope.

Yes indeed. Pope John called and presided over the council that instigated much needed reform. Vatican II transformed the relationship between the Church and the People of God. How could this be seen as anything but the actions of a strong Pope.

If Pope Francis is going to be someone cut from the same cloth as Pope John XXIII then that will indeed be very good for our Church.

 

[Marie5890]

Praying for all those who find themselves disappointed, dismayed or even a bit depressed over Pope Francis style.

It should be emphasized that he is doing nothing wrong in his choice of style thus far in how he presents himself in his Petrine ministry. He has not presented himself in an inappropriate way.

Nothing sinful in any of it.

May we all be given the Peace that comes from God over His Vicar of Christ. We may think that His Church should go in a different direction. But that doesnt mean God wants it to go in the same direction that we want.

Praying the Lord’s Prayer, sincerely, with “Thy will be done” is no easy task, if we really mean it.
May we find the ability to pray in all faith, all confidence “THY WILL BE DONE”

God Bless. Hope everyone’s day is a blessed one.

 

[fix]

Any thoughts on this? I was actually quite sad and disappointed…I felt it was rather untactile…

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I do not think any reasonable person would believe he said such a thing, left wing ideologues would believe it. It has been pointed out why he did not wear it at first and it had nothing to do with sarcasm about previous popes.

 

[Brendan_64]

It should be emphasized that he is doing nothing wrong in his choice of style thus far in how he presents himself in his Petrine ministry. He has not presented himself in an inappropriate way.

Nothing sinful in any of it.

May we all be given the Peace that comes from God over His Vicar of Christ. We may think that His Church should go in a different direction. But that doesnt mean God wants it to go in the same direction that we want.

 

[brierpatch1974]

I wasn’t there so I have no idea what was said or how it was said but to me it seems the Pope is more worried about practicing and teaching the faith than dressing up in worldly materials and such. Is that really a bad thing? The man is humble and going back to he basics and not worried about being politically correct. He is going to remind us and teach us what the church is all about and not change it or cater to those who don’t like it.

 

[brierpatch1974]

Praying for all those who find themselves disappointed, dismayed or even a bit depressed over Pope Francis style.

It should be emphasized that he is doing nothing wrong in his choice of style thus far in how he presents himself in his Petrine ministry. He has not presented himself in an inappropriate way.

Nothing sinful in any of it.

May we all be given the Peace that comes from God over His Vicar of Christ. We may think that His Church should go in a different direction. But that doesnt mean God wants it to go in the same direction that we want.

Praying the Lord’s Prayer, sincerely, with “Thy will be done” is no easy task, if we really mean it.
May we find the ability to pray in all faith, all confidence “THY WILL BE DONE”

God Bless. Hope everyone’s day is a blessed one.

I love your post. It seems there are a lot of people not liking the way he dresses or acts. They are wanting a glamorous rock star to show off it seems. We all need to be more humble in life.

 

[fix]

Any thoughts on this? I was actually quite sad and disappointed…I felt it was rather untactile…

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

“No thank you, Monsignore,” Pope Francis is reported to have replied. “You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!”

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

I agree. The sentence “Carnival Time is over” seems completely unlike anyone of that stature, incluidng him with his personality. Rather disrespectful and difficult to believe.

I do believe it’s the usual fanciful media with time on their hands, eager to create sensationalism. Honestly, half of the people in “journalism” are frustrated creative writers. (Or so it seems. That’s merely based on observation on my part!) And probably the other half are really good but get edited by those in charge of the Re-education Camps.

It has been reported why he did not wear it and it has nothing to do with claiming the carnival is over. The left has an agenda and they will use any media they can.0

 

[doormouse73]

all of this over a bit of material…

the emphasis of Jesus is not of this world…

like the song says…

lacing up my boots.

going back to my roots…

im talkin about the roots in the man.

not talkin about the the roots in the land…

i love him every second…

 

[ringil]

We’ve moved from whether a Pope should have vestments to the destitute attending mass.
I think many devout poor come better dressed than wealthy folks to mass!
Situations matter, but forms matter. Scripture is posted in this thread. Church doctrine is clear: The very sacraments are by definition forms, physical conduits of grace.

You cannot say that dress does not matter. You can say situations mean sacrifice of some forms some times, but to say dress (forms) are not important has been shown by Church and Scripture: form and liturgy matters to God. (so it matters to me)

I had not really meant to be addressing the laity coming to mass. We’ve moved a bit off topic.

You are setting up a false analogy. The pope hasn’t foregone any necessary liturgical attire and he is not going to either. He will always wear appropriate vestments for mass. He will always wear a mitre, a pectoral cross, white zuchetto, and carry a crozier. If he is engaging in non-mass prayer works like benediction, public vespers, he will wear a cope.

In short there are different level of liturgical dress. Some are mandatory and have the longest and most significant theological meaning. On the other hand some garments like the cappa magna for instance, grew out of late medieval times and signify class difference. These types of garments attached to signify class will likely not be part of Pope Francis attire. Certain items of choir dress do not enjoy the same level of theological significance.

His liturgical garb will be beautiful and fine, likely worth more than many small cars, but it may be of a more simple design. That is his choice.

 

[ringil]

Quick question though, weren’t there problems with Pope John XXIII? I heard some people say that he wasn’t strong on things. I know, I know, I heard things, but just want to be sure that Francis doesn’t go that way.

“strong on things”? He is Blessed and universally loved.

 

[Tobias22]

I think this will be a period of a re-emphasis on the option for the poor. The best elements of liberation theology brought to the center of the Church w/o the baggage - as in tying it to a political structure.

I think Pope francis will be a lot like John 23. Opening up and reaching out to the world.

 

[The_Scott]

It has been reported why he did not wear it and it has nothing to do with claiming the carnival is over. The left has an agenda and they will use any media they can.0

Source please!