Pope Francis: Jesus does not give importance to rote observance

[irishpatrick]

If people practice as you say- I try to pay attention more to myself BTW’- but if they do practice in that way- they are not showing themselves to be good friends with Jesus.

And again it’s not Protestant.

Maybe you are thinking of the more shallow way Evangelicals express their faith- like in their hyper emotionality and “bells and whistles”. They don’t express a mature relationship with Christ because they don;t have much theology or history to work with.

If they have faith enough in the Lord to do those things–then they can be saved because they love the Lord enough to do what the Lord wants them to do. It is true that the many saints had much closer relationships with Jesus/God–yet that is why they are called saints. It is also true that we are to work toward being saints, and it also true that it is more productive (in this life) to grow our faith–yet, it is also true that hundreds of millions of Catholics have been literally the salt of the world simply by holding a holy fear of the Lord, and by obeying Him and His Church–they had simple, yet deep faith in Christ.

I am of the unflinching opinion that the “personal relationship” mantra stems from Protestantism–we will not agree, best to let it go.

 

[irishpatrick]

Ringil,

Thanks for the chat–have a great day. I need to get some work done.

 

[Tigg]

You missed my point (perhaps I am writing poorly). Yes, if we love God, we will do those things from a foundation of love—IF WE WANT TO DO SO. Yet, if we tend to think of Jesus as our friend (and not so much our God and Savior), then we will do whatever we please even though we still love Him. And, we will assume that we can do whatever we want because our friend will not mind, because after all, He is our friend and buddy.

**It used to be: My Lord, my Savior, my God.

Today it is: My best friend.

There is a huge problem with that.



**
One could argue that it should be: My Lord, my Savior, my God, my best friend–yet, in truth, people pursue the friend part more than anything else because they are now convinced that having a personal relationship is what saves a person. Again, look around, the proof of what I am saying is everywhere.

We should go to Mass, and to Confession, and do all the other things, for one simple reason: because God, through His Church, tells us to do so. Period.

IP - I am tracking right with you and I agree. It may be because we have lost a sense of the Transcendent - and sadly minimize the affects of sin as well. If we rightly perceive God we will begin to understand His holiness and see our huge deficiency which is - how much we have failed to love and live as we should. Pure emotion probably shares the blame - feeling good - the kumbaya aspect as opposed to reality.

 

[BillyT926]

Your knowledge on expressing this surpasses mine.

Thanks for being so succinct and clear.

Thank you! God bless you.

 

[Brendan]

I agree with that.

Yet what you are missing, that I am trying to say, is there is also NOTHING saying we must have a “personal relationship” with Christ. And, imo, in a world flooded with Protestant thought, many, many Catholics now believe that developing a personal relationship with Jesus is more important than everything else .

I would claim that a ‘close, personal relationship with Christ’ is not only required BY Catholism, it also requires one to BE Catholic to have that relationship.

It does not get much more personal of a relationship with Christ than to receive Christ in the Eucharist. Also, a close personal relationship would also include being on personal terms with the Mother of your friend.

Those are lacking in Protestant communities.

For Catholics then, we ARE to develop a close, personal relationship with Christ, but it is incomplete if we restrict it to just prayer alone.

Such a relationship requires the frequent reception of the Sacraments, a correct knowledge of the communion of Saints, and a devotion to the Mother of God.

Anything less would neither be close nor personal.

 

[irishpatrick]

I would claim that a ‘close, personal relationship with Christ’ is not only required BY Catholism, it also requires one to BE Catholic to have that relationship.

It does not get much more personal of a relationship with Christ than to receive Christ in the Eucharist. Also, a close personal relationship would also include being on personal terms with the Mother of your friend.

Those are lacking in Protestant communities.

For Catholics then, we ARE to develop a close, personal relationship with Christ, but it is incomplete if we restrict it to just prayer alone.

Such a relationship requires the frequent reception of the Sacraments, a correct knowledge of the communion of Saints, and a devotion to the Mother of God.

Anything less would neither be close nor personal.

I agree that when people grow in faith, they do/can become closer to Christ. I disagree that we are somehow required to have a “personal relationship” with Christ. God commands us to love Him with all our heart–so I think the more accurate way to think of this would be: we need to develop a deep love for the Lord. There is a difference (big) between the two ways of thinking.

I believe the quite modern (Protestant) mantra of, “do you have a close personal relationship with Christ,” is damaging to souls. We are to love and obey the Lord, yet we are to always remember that He is our Lord, our Savior, our God–not our buddy/pal.

I love Jesus with all my heart–yet I cannot converse with Him as I would a friend, because in truth there is a limited amount we can know about our Lord. After all, He is God, He is our Judge, everything that ever was or ever will be came through and for Him.

Again, when people start thinking of Jesus as their buddy, they can easily lose sight of the fact that Jesus is Lord, Savior, God and Judge, over every soul that ever lived. Those same people can then go about sinning and justify it in their minds by saying that their “buddy” would never judge them harshly. We all see and hear this frequently when people make comments like: “Well, maybe your God will judge you for that, but my God would not do such a thing to me because I have a personal relationship with Him–he is my friend, and a friend would never condemn another friend.”

To develop an authentic love for the Lord is something we see mandated by God.

To develop a mythical “personal relationship” is not mandated. I am not sure how anyone on earth can develop such a relationship

 

[clem456]

I agree with that.

Yet what you are missing, that I am trying to say, is there is also NOTHING saying we must have a “personal relationship” with Christ.

The whole focus of the Christian life is to come to know God, love him, serve him. “Him”, a person. God is “other”, the ultimate other, a divine person. This IS a relationship, and the teaching of the Church reinforces this consistently and constantly. Love is explicitly a relationship. We do not love ourselves, or our own worship, and God does not love himself alone. We love each other. We do not know a book, we know a person, God, through Jesus Christ, who is both a fully divine and human person. Our worship honors this relationship and gives expression to it. If we do not have a relationship with God, we are simply not going to live in union with him for all eternity.
The word “personal” does not relieve us of the duty to worship in communion with the Church and obey her laws, if that is what you are getting at. But the relationship with God is very personal, by definition that we are persons, and so is God.

This section of the catechism beautifully sets forth the fact that we are called to have a relationship with God.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

I. THE DESIRE FOR GOD

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.1
…
IN BRIEF
44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

 

[pnewton]

I would like to note that the Holy Father did not say rote practices and outward conduct are bad or dangerous or anything bad. All he said was that Jesus did not give any* importance* to these. There is nothing wrong with them.

The point is that nothing we do outwardly or repetitively is an end. Outward works and repetitive prayers can be a means though. Jesus did not give them importance because he was the Word made flesh in front of them. The Pharisees substituted the means (outward observance of the law) for the end (Jesus). If we think saying the Rosary is important, realize there is also a way in which it is unimportant. If the Rosary draws us closer to God, it is the drawing closer to God that is important, with the Rosary being the means. If the Rosary does not draw us closer to God, then it is an unimportant rote practice.

There are many people that need to just speak directly with Jesus in prayer without any formalized structure to accomplish the same end of faith and love.

 

[irishpatrick]

The whole focus of the Christian life is to come to know God, love him, serve him. “Him”, a person. God is “other”, the ultimate other, a divine person. This IS a relationship, and the teaching of the Church reinforces this consistently and constantly. Love is explicitly a relationship. We do not love ourselves, or our own worship, and God does not love himself alone. We love each other. We do not know a book, we know a person, God, through Jesus Christ, who is both a fully divine and human person. Our worship honors this relationship and gives expression to it. If we do not have a relationship with God, we are simply not going to live in union with him for all eternity.
The word “personal” does not relieve us of the duty to worship in communion with the Church and obey her laws, if that is what you are getting at. But the relationship with God is very personal, by definition that we are persons, and so is God.

This section of the catechism beautifully sets forth the fact that we are called to have a relationship with God.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

I remain of the opinion that the mantra, “personal relationship with Christ” is the wrong way to go about these matters.

We are called to develop an authentic love for God–it is even mandated in the Commandments and the Church supports that as well. Yet, developing an authentic love for Christ is not an easy thing–it takes discipline and work to attain–one must develop a true prayer life, and they must avail themselves of the Sacraments and all the tools Jesus gave the Church for the world. Catholics who appear to be “going through the paces” are quite often developing and maintaining a prayer life with the Lord–they are often the ones who will say daily rosaries, go to daily Mass, and set specific amounts of time each day for prayer and worship.They are not robots, they are developing a love for Jesus through a disciplined prayer life.

Mass is NOT a place for fellowship as Protestants have in their services. Rather, Mass is the highest form of prayer and worship we can celebrate. We go to Mass to worship Christ, not each other–we are supposed to go to honor our Lord and Savior, not each other. God does not need our attendance–WE need our attendance for the sake of our eternal souls.

We CANNOT develop an authentic love for the Lord without first developing a disciplined prayer life (and Mass is the highest form of prayer available to us). We must have an interior disposition that places Jesus at the center of our lives, and we do that through prayer (planned daily prayer), and we do that by listening to the Lord (being quiet so Jesus can speak to out hearts–in a planned structured way).

There are 8,760 hours in a full year. God, through His Church, asks for us to give just 60 of those hours back to Him–yet many Catholics will not even make that requirement. If we were to do a tithe of our time, we would need to give 876 hours each year back to the Lord. Yet, most Catholics do not even attain the level of 60 hours given back to the Lord.

We are called to love God–we cannot do that unless we spend time in prayer with Him, and any Catholic who delegates certain time each day for prayer (even if it is routine prayers) is telling God that they love Him so much, that they have dedicated time each day to be with Him in prayer (preferably before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle in a Catholic Church). That is how one grows in faith–it is NOT a declaration of some “personal relationship with Christ”–rather it is working to develop an authentic love for Christ, and it is creating a true disciplined life in which Jesus is at the center, and one in which we give time to Jesus to speak to us.

By relegating a path to holiness to some “personal relationship,” we are in a very real way saying that “our God” is different than “your God.” That somehow our “relationship” with Christ is so personal, that no other person can share the same view of Jesus, and under that way of thinking we often hear things like: “Oh well, ‘my’ God would never judge me for that, and ‘my’ God is one of pure love and will understand and accept everything ‘I’ do because me and the Lord have this special thing together.” It becomes a situation in which there are billions of different gods, rather than One true God as we all know there is!

Along those same lines we see so many Catholics justify all manners of sin–abortion, contraception, living together, fornication, etc…and they justify those sins by saying, “Well, that is fine for you to think those things are sinful, but that is not how ‘my’ God is.”

In a nation so heavily influenced by Protestant thought, it is sad to see so much of that same thought being held by Catholics–I have no idea, other than prayer and asking for the Lord’s help, how to re-Catholicize the faithful. It will take incredible work and a lot of Divine help.

 

[clem456]

I remain of the opinion that the mantra, “personal relationship with Christ” is the wrong way to go about these matters.

We are called to develop an authentic love for God–it is even mandated in the Commandments and the Church supports that as well. Yet, developing an authentic love for Christ is not an easy thing–it takes discipline and work to attain–one must develop a true prayer life, and they must avail themselves of the Sacraments and all the tools Jesus gave the Church for the world. Catholics who appear to be “going through the paces” are quite often developing and maintaining a prayer life with the Lord–they are often the ones who will say daily rosaries, go to daily Mass, and set specific amounts of time each day for prayer and worship.

Mass is NOT a place for fellowship as Protestants have in their services. Rather, Mass is the highest form of prayer and worship we can celebrate. We go to Mass to worship Christ, not each other–we are supposed to go to honor our Lord and Savior, not each other. God does not need our attendance–WE need our attendance for the sake of our eternal souls.

We CANNOT develop an authentic love for the Lord without first developing a disciplined prayer life (and Mass is the highest form of prayer available to us). We must have an interior disposition that places Jesus at the center of our lives, and we do that through prayer (planned daily prayer), and we do that by listening to the Lord (being quiet so Jesus can speak to out hearts–in a planned structured way).

There are 8,760 hours in a full year. God, through His Church, asks for us to give just 60 of those hours back to Him–yet many Catholics will not even make that requirement. If we were to do a tithe of our time, we would need to give 876 hours each year back to the Lord. Yet, most Catholics do not even attain the level of 60 hours given back to the Lord.

We are called to love God–we cannot do that unless we spend time in prayer with Him, and any Catholic who delegates certain time each day for prayer (even if it is routine prayers) is telling God that they love Him so much, that they have dedicated time each day to be with Him in prayer (preferably before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle in a Catholic Church). That is how one grows in faith–it is NOT a declaration of some “personal relationship with Christ”–rather it is working to develop an authentic love for Christ, and it is creating a true disciplined life in which Jesus is at the center, and one in which we give time to Jesus to speak to us.

By relegating a path to holiness to some “personal relationship,” we are in a very real way saying that “our God” is different than “your God.” That somehow our “relationship” with Christ is so personal, that no other person can share the same view of Jesus, and under that way of thinking we often hear things like: “Oh well, ‘my’ God would never judge me for that, and ‘my’ God is one of pure love and will understand and accept everything ‘I’ do because me and the Lord have this special thing together.” It becomes a situation in which there are billions of different gods, rather than One true God as we all know there is!

Along those same lines we see so many Catholics justify all manners of sin–abortion, contraception, living together, fornication, etc…and they justify those sins by saying, “Well, that is fine for you to think those things are sinful, but that is not how ‘my’ God is.”

In a nation so heavily influenced by Protestant thought, it is sad to see so much of that same thought being held by Catholics–I have no idea, other than prayer and asking for the Lord’s help, how to re-Catholicize the faithful. It will take incredible work and a lot of Divine help.

Ok, you are saying that our relationship with God is not exclusively personal, with all the dangers that presents. Presumption seems to be the first danger when an interpretation of “personal” puts the worship of the individual before the worship of God.

 

[irishpatrick]

Ok, you are saying that our relationship with God is not exclusively personal, with all the dangers that presents. Presumption seems to be the first danger when an interpretation of “personal” puts the worship of the individual before the worship of God.

Can you please expand on what you are saying?

 

[Thorns]

This is very interesting. So what about the people who have certain desires, wants, etc, but restrain themselves out of respect and obedience to God’s law and the Church. Does that count for naught considering you didn’t have “good intentions?” The whole point of moral law is to serve as a counterpoint to natural human tendencies and desires. (Namely, I WILL go to Mass this Sunday even though I don’t feel like getting up on this cold, rainy morning. I WILL NOT look at this pornography even though I am tempted and, deep down, want to do so. I WILL NOT flip the driver who cut me off the bird even though I want to and that is what I am thinking.)

I was thinking the very same thing. There is always an excuse for every sin and evil action a person commits. People dont sin for the sale of evil, they sin because they see a perceived good in whatever sinful action they take. So does that mean everyone is saved? We know that cant be true, Jesus even says that when he mentions many taking the easy road.

 

[Thorns]

I believe that there is certainly room for doing things “because you are supposed to”. That is the boat I am in now. But the problem is we need “must” move beyond that- to live our lives in a holy way as a direct growth of our relationship with Christ Himself.

Simply following rules is what children do and can be part of a relationship based on fear- and that is not what God wants of us.

See, I see “doing things because youre supposed to” takes a greater act of will, trust, and faith than doing things because they feel good. Its really easy to follow the rules if your heart is in it and you like them. Of course, its not wrong to feel right about doing the right things.

 

[clem456]

Can you please expand on what you are saying?

If the call to personal relationship with God is lived narrowly, or in a individualistic way, as you thoroughly described, I think a person presumes to have a full relationship with God outside the Church. The danger there is obvious as you describe.

But is essential for every person to cultivate a relationship with God, in communion with others, through the Church. It’s such an essential idea that it’s hard to put into words…

 

[irishpatrick]

If the call to personal relationship with God is lived narrowly, or in a individualistic way, as you thoroughly described, I think a person presumes to have a full relationship with God outside the Church. The danger there is obvious as you describe.

But is essential for every person to cultivate a relationship with God, in communion with others, through the Church. It’s such an essential idea that it’s hard to put into words…

You describe the problem well in your first two sentences. I believe that in most cases people do make their “relationship” with God a very personal and individualistic endeavor. That is why so many people, including many Catholics, can so easily justify their own sins away–they feel that “their” personal relationship with the Lord is so unique, and so special, that condemnation would never come from the Lord they hold in such a special and unique relationship. We see this proved all the time.

Further, it troubles me that there is a growing emphasis on this so-called personal relationship. Not long ago a more appropriate way to say this would be: do you know the Lord? Knowing Jesus, and developing a love for Him, is far different than assuming a special relationship exists without knowing it does. Again, if that is what we are called to do, than there will be literally billions of different views of the Lord, and if those views are all correct, than the Lord will treat each person under a different form of justice and love–nothing about that is Biblical and it is not based in Church teachings either. In other words, if we all develop our own personal relationship with Jesus, than as humans that relationship will be different for every person, which in turn means that there will be a huge disparity of opinions regarding WHO Jesus actually is–therein, imo, lies one of the greatest dangers because Jesus has revealed what He wants us to know, we do not get to make that up WHO Jesus is under some auspice of a personal relationship.

Finally, how many people who claim to have this so-called personal relationship spend any real time in prayer? How many go to Mass regularly and receive the Sacraments on a regular basis? How can one develop anything with the Lord if a person does not commit to do so–using a disciplined and intentional plan? Without prayer how do we ever get to know the Lord?

There are many times people do not want to go to Mass, and yet if they go anyway, that is a very holy act. There are many times people just do not want to pray, yet if they pray (even half heartedly) that is a very holy act. Faith is both a gift and a process. We are not God, the job is filled and the Lord has that role. We are best served, imo, to recall that we are the creature, and God is the creator–we should do the things the Church mandates out of true love if we held that love, yet we should also do those things for one simple reason: Because god said so! That used to be enough–Catholics did as they were told by the Church because they knew Jesus instituted the Church–in other words, Catholics used to follow simply because God said so.

Are our priorities set correctly? Do we want to serve Christ, or do we want Him to serve us?

 

[Betheone]

There are many times people do not want to go to Mass, and yet if they go anyway, that is a very holy act. There are many times people just do not want to pray, yet if they pray (even half heartedly) that is a very holy act. Faith is both a gift and a process. We are not God, the job is filled and the Lord has that role. We are best served, imo, to recall that we are the creature, and God is the creator–we should do the things the Church mandates out of true love if we held that love, yet we should also do those things for one simple reason: Because god said so! That used to be enough–Catholics did as they were told by the Church because they knew Jesus instituted the Church–in other words, Catholics used to follow simply because God said so.

Are our priorities set correctly? Do we want to serve Christ, or do we want Him to serve us?

After reading through the later posts in this thread, I think you and I aren’t really sitting on opposite sides of the table on this issue. However, I stand by my earlier statements, and I think you could do well to re-read them and understand where I’m coming from.

There are also a lot of people who don’t want to go to church and they do anyway. Yet they doze off during the homily. They mindlessly recite the prayers. They leave immediately after receiving communion - literally walking straight out the door after they consume the host. They do this because they are fulfilling their Catholic obligation to attend Sunday mass - because they must.

These people - rote observers - are the ones Pope Francis is concerned about. They are “Catholic” because they fulfilled the obligations out of fear of running afoul of the obligations. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this type of worshipper existed once in history. They were called Pharisees. Many modern day Pharisees are still here, by the way, touting their righteousness on every percieved “imperfect” Christian.

I used to pray every day even when I didn’t want to do so (but forced myself to do out of fear of being seen by God as a slacker) and I went to church just because that was what the family did on Sundays. Eventually my faith became so mechanical that it was easy for me to walk away from the whole deal when I did. God calls everyone to come to Him. He called me for 20 years before I finally answered. Believe it or not, it was when I opened myself to a more personal relationship with God that I understood what love for God meant and how it could help me grow spiritually.

This “personal” relationship isn’t what many people fear it to be. I wasn’t crafting a religion or a personal deity based on my needs. Rather, I was coming back to God and truly listening to Him through prayer and reading the scriptures. Mass is no longer an obligation for me, it something I look forward to each week with eagerness and anticipation. Same with the commandments. I follow them with joy and reverence, knowing full well that when I slip, I can ask forgiveness rather than speculate on what horrors lay in front of me on the day of judgment. In short, I am not motivated to be Catholic out of fear of running afoul of the laws of God. I am motivated out of love for God.

If you think I never fear punishment from The Lord because I do things mainly out of love for Him, you’re wrong. My greatest fear is God removing His love for me altogether. To me, that is a fate worse than hell to never be loved by God.

 

[irishpatrick]

After reading through the later posts in this thread, I think you and I aren’t really sitting on opposite sides of the table on this issue. However, I stand by my earlier statements, and I think you could do well to re-read them and understand where I’m coming from.

There are also a lot of people who don’t want to go to church and they do anyway. Yet they doze off during the homily. They mindlessly recite the prayers. They leave immediately after receiving communion - literally walking straight out the door after they consume the host. They do this because they are fulfilling their Catholic obligation to attend Sunday mass - because they must.

These people - rote observers - are the ones Pope Francis is concerned about. They are “Catholic” because they fulfilled the obligations out of fear of running afoul of the obligations. If this sounds familiar, it’s because this type of worshipper existed once in history. They were called Pharisees. Many modern day Pharisees are still here, by the way, touting their righteousness on every percieved “imperfect” Christian.

I used to pray every day even when I didn’t want to do so (but forced myself to do out of fear of being seen by God as a slacker) and I went to church just because that was what the family did on Sundays. Eventually my faith became so mechanical that it was easy for me to walk away from the whole deal when I did. God calls everyone to come to Him. He called me for 20 years before I finally answered. Believe it or not, it was when I opened myself to a more personal relationship with God that I understood what love for God meant and how it could help me grow spiritually.

This “personal” relationship isn’t what many people fear it to be. I wasn’t crafting a religion or a personal deity based on my needs. Rather, I was coming back to God and truly listening to Him through prayer and reading the scriptures. Mass is no longer an obligation for me, it something I look forward to each week with eagerness and anticipation. Same with the commandments. I follow them with joy and reverence, knowing full well that when I slip, I can ask forgiveness rather than speculate on what horrors lay in front of me on the day of judgment. In short, I am not motivated to be Catholic out of fear of running afoul of the laws of God. I am motivated out of love for God.

If you think I never fear punishment from The Lord because I do things mainly out of love for Him, you’re wrong. My greatest fear is God removing His love for me altogether. To me, that is a fate worse than hell to never be loved by God.

I do not agree with your assessment of what the Pope was saying. I believe (do not know) that the Pope was being critical when people have no real faith at all, and yet those people want to be seen as if they have faith in front of other people–to be seen, to lift themselves up.

I completely disagree with your harsh attitude toward people who go through the motions. While I 100% agree that we get much more out of worship when we actually engage and when we actually love the Lord, I must say I am quite tired of all the recent Catholic bashing coming from Catholics. A person should not fall asleep at Mass, they should not leave right after Communion unless they have a very good reason to do so, and yes plenty of people mindlessly recite prayers (I confess I am guilty of that every now and then myself).

What so many people miss (while their looking down their noses at Catholics who are NOT good enough), is that those people took the time to go to Mass. They took the time to join their families…they do say the prayers, and they do receive the Lord in Communion. They are there, and whenever a person is sitting in a pew, there is a chance that the Holy Spirit and the Lord can touch their hearts. Personally, I love to see people going to Mass even if they are not fully engaged–it is far better then to see them stay away and stay home.

The Church tells us what Catholics are to do to attain salvation. Jesus gave the Church the power and authority to make those rules and decisions. If a Catholic chooses to ride along the line of the minimums, then that is their choice, and if we trust the Church, they will still be saved.

One Catholic wants the Latin Mass to return. Another Catholic wants altar rails to return. Another Catholic thinks only boys should be altar servers. Another Catholic thinks the new changes to GIRM should be reversed–while another thinks they are fine. One Catholic does not dress quite well enough, while another dresses to the hilt. One Catholic seems to be mindlessly praying, while another looks completely engaged. One-and-on.

I believe the best course of action is to worry about our souls while at Mass–while we give proper worship to the Lord. If something someone does troubles us, say a prayer for that person, and say a prayer for ourselves.

We cannot lament the fact that so many Catholics do not attend Mass, while also bashing those who attend with less than perfect dispositions and reasons.

 

[SuzanneD]

Just my thoughts, but I think duty leads to devotion, which grows love and awe of Holy God.

 

[irishpatrick]

Just my thoughts, but I think duty leads to devotion, which grows love and awe of Holy God.

In one sentence you said what I was trying to say across many posts. Well said.

 

[Betheone]

I do not agree with your assessment of what the Pope was saying. I believe (do not know) that the Pope was being critical when people have no real faith at all, and yet those people want to be seen as if they have faith in front of other people–to be seen, to lift themselves up.

I completely disagree with your harsh attitude toward people who go through the motions. While I 100% agree that we get much more out of worship when we actually engage and when we actually love the Lord, I must say I am quite tired of all the recent Catholic bashing coming from Catholics. A person should not fall asleep at Mass, they should not leave right after Communion unless they have a very good reason to do so, and yes plenty of people mindlessly recite prayers (I confess I am guilty of that every now and then myself).

The Church tells us what Catholics are to do to attain salvation. Jesus gave the Church the power and authority to make those rules and decisions. If a Catholic chooses to ride along the line of the minimums, then that is their choice, and if we trust the Church, they will still be saved…

We cannot lament the fact that so many Catholics do not attend Mass, while also bashing those who attend with less than perfect dispositions and reasons.

This is going to be my last post here. You’ve been fighting against my point of view the entire time, and I have no wish to fight fellow Catholics on a belief that is very dear to me - especially when this new perspective on worship has renewed my faith in God. You insist that a loving, personal relationship has no place in Catholicism, and I disagree. Let’s hope Catholics like yourselves don’t drive me away from the faith like they did 20 years ago.

With that said, I have a few more points before I bid your thread farewell.

1. When you said the “Pope was being critical when people have no real faith at all, and yet those people want to be seen as if they have faith in front of other people”, I completely agree with that. That was, in fact, the whole point of my most recent post.
2. Attending mass with a mere passing interest in the celebration is an insult to God. Jesus quoted Isaiah about this style of worship: “these people worship me with their lips, yet their hearts are far from me.” Yes, it is a harsh assessment, and yes, I do hope those pretenders who go through the motions for the sake of going through the motions are offended. They need to realize that Catholics are laughed at by other Christians for a lackluster devotion towards the Sunday mass and a mindlessly mechanical recitation of traditional prayers. If I come off as harsh with my words it is for a very good reason.
3. Finally, it true that The Church was given to us by Christ. But God is greater than The Church. It is in God only that we trust. The Church doesn’t save people, God does.