Pope Francis: Jesus does not give importance to rote observance

[irishpatrick]

**Betheone, **

First, I hope you come back to this thread long enough to read my response.

I sincerely apologize for upsetting you, that was the last thing I’d want to do. While we clearly see this issue differently, if you go back and read my many posts, you will see that we agree that we are called to love the Lord (it is in the Commandments). Where we disagree is about what I call a modern mandate for a personal relationship.

I also apologize for giving the impression that I am “fighting” with you (or anyone else) about these issues–again, that was not my intent. I am passionate about my views, as are you and most others here, and I must strive to not come across as though I am fighting. I apologize again for that.

I think, respectfully, that Catholics (in general) need to have a more loving heart toward their fellow Catholics. I agree 100% with you that a fully engaged heart and mind at Mass is the best way to celebrate Liturgy (and I have said that several times); however, if Catholics only went to Mass when they were 100% into it, than our Churches would close down because great numbers do not fully engage. I believe (could be wrong) that what you are missing about my view is this:

(1) Without faith it is impossible to please God, yet even the smallest of faith can be like a mustard seed and it can grow and bloom, which means even those pew takers can be touched by the Holy Spirit, and even those pew takers have enough faith to be at Mass, and that is often a start to a binding faith. It is important to remember that each person is in a different place in their walk with Christ–some are just starting out and have a weak faith and those people can easily fall away. Others have a deep and abiding faith that is formed on the strength of Christ.

(2) Holding a “personal” and “deep” love for God is both wonderful, and a mandate by God Himself; however, many people when they make their relationship “too” personal, they fall into a mode of thinking that God is only their God, and that no one else has the same view of God–and therein lies a huge problem and danger. Look around the culture, we see so many people almost celebrating their sins, and then saying things like, “I am not sinning because ‘my’ God would never hold me to that.” In that scenario the person has created a ‘personal relationship’ in their minds that is detached from reality. That is how millions of Catholics can contracept, abort, divorce, fornicate, live together, etc., because they feel “their God” will not judge them for their actions (and many of those people continue to think of themselves as “good” Catholics). Please, before taking offense, think about what I am saying. It is wonderful to have a deep love for God (call that a personal relationship if you like), yet that love must be properly oriented to WHO Jesus truly is, and it must NOT deny revealed truths in order to justify sin.

(3) We must strive not to read another’s person’s heart when at Mass. To us a person might not look as if they care at all, when in fact they might care deeply. We are not walking in their shoes, and we do not know what is going on their lives–there are any number of reasons for people to as they do at Mass.

(4) As for non-Catholics laughing at Catholics–that is an issue within those people who do the laughing. It is not worthy of any real concern on our part (imo) because in many cases they do not even agree with, or understand, what the Catholic liturgy is about–so for them to laugh reveals more about them, than it does about us. They need our prayers, because everyone knows you cannot read another person’s heart–only God can do that.

Finally, the purpose of the Church is to bring souls to salvation, without that the Church is without any meaning. Jesus gave the world His Church for the salvation of souls…it is through the Church that Grace flows, it is through the Church that the Sacraments flow, it is through the Church that we receive Confession, and the Priesthood. It is through the Church that we receive the Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, it is through the Church that we receive Sacred Tradition, the Magisterium, the Pope, Sacred Scripture, our Blessed Mother Mary, and the Saints. While it is true that Jesus/God is greater than the institutional Church, we must not forget that Jesus Himself is the head of the Church–it is a Divinely created Church.

We need to find ways to help people who hold a small faith to grow their faith like that mustard seed–we need to help them see how amazing the Mass and the faith is–we do not need to condemn them or attack them or look down on them, because chances are we were all in that same place (or similar) at some time in our lives.

I again apologize for any hurt, frustration, or pain I caused you–I absolutely did not intend to upset anyone.

Thank you for the reply, and may God bless you fully.

 

[clem456]

The relationship with God can’t be too personal.
I think we reject “personal” when the word personal is twisted to mean exclusively personal, or person centered, instead of God-centered (idolatry?).

It seems to me the Church would like to emphasize that God desires us to be in a very personal relationship with him. It permeates Catholic teaching. We shouldn’t fear broadcasting that message because some others may have a mistaken idea of it.
Pope Benedict “Deus Caritas Est”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

We have come to believe in God’s love: in these words the Christian can express the fundamental decision of his life. Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.
…
Consequently, his creation is dear to him, for it was willed by him and “made” by him…The one God in whom Israel believes, on the other hand, loves with a personal love.
…
on the one hand we find ourselves before a strictly metaphysical image of God: God is the absolute and ultimate source of all being; but this universal principle of creation—the Logos, primordial reason—is at the same time a lover with all the passion of a true love.

From the standpoint of creation, eros directs man towards marriage, to a bond which is unique and definitive; thus, and only thus, does it fulfil its deepest purpose. Corresponding to the image of a monotheistic God is monogamous marriage. Marriage based on exclusive and definitive love becomes the icon of the relationship between God and his people and vice versa. God’s way of loving becomes the measure of human love.

…
A proper perspective for “personal”:

Union with Christ is also union with all those to whom he gives himself. I cannot possess Christ just for myself; **I can belong to him only in union **with all those who have become, or who will become, his own.
…
But if in my life I fail completely to heed others, solely out of a desire to be “devout” and to perform my “religious duties”, then my relationship with God will also grow arid. It becomes merely “proper”, but loveless. Only my readiness to encounter my neighbour and to show him love makes me sensitive to God as well. Only if I serve my neighbour can my eyes be opened to what God does for me and how much he loves me.

 

[irishpatrick]

The relationship with God can’t be too personal.
I think we reject “personal” when the word personal is twisted to mean exclusively personal, or person centered, instead of God-centered (idolatry?).

It seems to me the Church would like to emphasize that God desires us to be in a very personal relationship with him. It permeates Catholic teaching. We shouldn’t fear broadcasting that message because some others may have a mistaken idea of it.
Pope Benedict “Deus Caritas Est”
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

…
A proper perspective for “personal”:

I think that for many people my views might fall into a discussing semantics, column. However, how we refer to things does matter.

My experience, and I think this is proved out in our culture, is that most people try to develop a uniquely personal relationship with God, which in some ways is very good, and in other ways is not good at all. Again, if a person feels that that Jesus is akin to being their best friend, than that person might also mistakenly feel that Jesus will not judge them for their sins…therein lies the problem and danger that I am trying to espouse.

Of course we are to strive to develop a close loving relationship with the Lord, after all the Commandments mandate that. The problems happen when people start thinking, “My God will do this, and my God will do that, and my God would never do X.” It seems to me that it is a form of trying to bring God down to us, rather than us reaching up/out to God.

Sometimes we should follow the Church/God simply because that is what God tells us to do, we might not always understand the reasons why, and we should be prepared to obey the Lord in all cases, even when we doubt or struggle…and in today’s culture that does not happen all that often, since most people define God according to their own image. Creating a personal relationship can lead to a person creating a personal God.

I feel we are better served to say we are **developing a loving relationship **with the Lord, rather than striving to make it too personal–since in personal relationships (from a human perspective) we can often be blind to our own faults and sins, and we can rarely fathom those closest to us will call us out on those faults and sins.

I think a simple way to put this is: God is God, and we are not Him.

 

[irishpatrick]

To all,

Thank you to all for the discussion. I have been challenged to think more about this subject thanks to your robust posts.

I do feel I have said enough, and I find I am repeating similar themes.

Thanks again.