Pope Francis: Obstinate Christians are Rebels and Idolaters
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P
ProVobis
Guest
T
TMC
Guest
The accusation was not that the Vatican’s translation was one among a number of acceptable variations. It was that the Vatican was either incompetent, or deliberately mistranslating (due to some supposed conspiracy). I accept that there may be variations in translation. I do not accept that the Vatican’s translators are nefarious conspirators, or that they are completely incompetent (while no one noticed either of those unlikely circumstances). I find it far more likely that the translation is accurate, but that some do not like the teaching being presented.
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ProVobis
Guest
There are subtle (if not noticeable or contextual) differences in many of English synonyms. How is it that there is not at least a subtle difference between the Italian and the English “obstinate”? Yet we focus on the “obstinate” as though it’s gospel truth from the Pope?
If I had the original I would pass it by my step brother, who is a court translator, and see how he’d translate it. I would like to know more about what he means by it.
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sallybutler
Guest
I was taught that there was the spirit of the law and the law. Wisdom would be the spirit of the law, all else would be law. Trends are like fashions, they come and go.
Perhaps you’re confusing wisdom and trends?
It is interesting that you focus in on that instead of praying in your mother tongue. According to studies, there are two things that people always do in their first languages, prayer and math.
I consider it an homage to my mother that I pray in the language she taught me. I hope you honor yours the same.
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AndyP2014
Guest
I think the real hang up isn’t the word obstinate so much as the phrase, that is the way we have always done things or something like it. The assumption is that he is targeting “tradition” or “traditionalist” which I don’t think is correct. That phrase can be used by a lot group both inside and out of the Church to rationalize a lot of bad behavior. I have seen it used to protect liturgical abuse that has been going on for a while. It could be used by those in the Church resisting reform or say a group like the SSPX. Given that he knew that the change to the rules for the foot washing rite where taking place later that week.
K
KSU
Guest
Originall posted by KSU #249
I hesitate to reopen old political wounds here, TMC. But if you want to research it, there are a couple of CAF threads on VPO’s English translation of paragraph 54, focusing on (1) the Pope’s understanding of American style Capitalism v. Argentinian Crony Capitalism, as well as (2) the Pope’s use of the U.S. Socialist/Democrat pejorative “trickle-down theories”. That phrase is used against the American style Capitalist theory that a booming Capitalist economy =jobs and greatly increased tax revenues= real benefits for the poor and middle class; or as sometimes stated by Republicans, “A rising tide lifts all boats”. American Socialists on the other hand, conveniently forgetting that JFK and Reagan not only believed in that theory but proved it, mockingly say benefits never trickle down from business to the middle and poor classes, so there must be an “equitable” distribution of wealth by means of greatly increased taxation and control of business…
[See post #249 for links]
You then flatly ignored the links I gave you in #249 of examples of other people who noticed it and wrote about it, and indicated that only I saw a mistranslation.
To top it off, you then indicated that it was far more likely that there was no mistranslation, just my dislike of the Pope’s teaching. In short, you ignore the evidence so that you can say it’s likely that Pope Francis knowingly chose to employ in an Apostolic Exhortation addressed to the whole world, the U.S. Socialist/Democrat pejorative “trickle-down theories” they use against U.S. Republicans.
Nice, my friend.
I hesitate to reopen old political wounds here, TMC. But if you want to research it, there are a couple of CAF threads on VPO’s English translation of paragraph 54, focusing on (1) the Pope’s understanding of American style Capitalism v. Argentinian Crony Capitalism, as well as (2) the Pope’s use of the U.S. Socialist/Democrat pejorative “trickle-down theories”. That phrase is used against the American style Capitalist theory that a booming Capitalist economy =jobs and greatly increased tax revenues= real benefits for the poor and middle class; or as sometimes stated by Republicans, “A rising tide lifts all boats”. American Socialists on the other hand, conveniently forgetting that JFK and Reagan not only believed in that theory but proved it, mockingly say benefits never trickle down from business to the middle and poor classes, so there must be an “equitable” distribution of wealth by means of greatly increased taxation and control of business…
[See post #249 for links]
I’ll bet you could win all your debates with the above tactic. I.E., you changed what I termed a mere “suspicion” about one and only one translator into an “accusation” that “the Vatican was either incompetent, or deliberately mistranslating (due to some supposed conspiracy).”
You then flatly ignored the links I gave you in #249 of examples of other people who noticed it and wrote about it, and indicated that only I saw a mistranslation.
To top it off, you then indicated that it was far more likely that there was no mistranslation, just my dislike of the Pope’s teaching. In short, you ignore the evidence so that you can say it’s likely that Pope Francis knowingly chose to employ in an Apostolic Exhortation addressed to the whole world, the U.S. Socialist/Democrat pejorative “trickle-down theories” they use against U.S. Republicans.
Nice, my friend.
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graciew
Guest
Sometimes God asks things that go against our schedule , sudden changes we resist and make our lives give turns.
My only reflection ,not without effort sometimes ,is sometimes visual. I see.myself raising my arms ,hands bents ,palms up , begging He will help me detach from my plans ,my schedule and sometimes my logic and accept He knows better and there is a big picture which involves other persons also and I do not know and He does not want me to know.at.least right here right now.
Wiser people in my life have accepted life as it presents and with more docility and joy than I have.
At some.points in my life ,ehat I have seen and experienced has brought all my books down the shelves as if my theory were to be looked through all over in relation to what reality is showing me.
In a way , it is like a time of detachment and a start over which ultimately has helped me connect more with God and others. And it is a road and I know that it is not the destination.
What I have always seen ,done ,thought ,felt ,in a certain way ,I have to let go even without fully understanding.
God help us be docile ,please. It is not easy ,at least for me.
My only reflection ,not without effort sometimes ,is sometimes visual. I see.myself raising my arms ,hands bents ,palms up , begging He will help me detach from my plans ,my schedule and sometimes my logic and accept He knows better and there is a big picture which involves other persons also and I do not know and He does not want me to know.at.least right here right now.
Wiser people in my life have accepted life as it presents and with more docility and joy than I have.
At some.points in my life ,ehat I have seen and experienced has brought all my books down the shelves as if my theory were to be looked through all over in relation to what reality is showing me.
In a way , it is like a time of detachment and a start over which ultimately has helped me connect more with God and others. And it is a road and I know that it is not the destination.
What I have always seen ,done ,thought ,felt ,in a certain way ,I have to let go even without fully understanding.
God help us be docile ,please. It is not easy ,at least for me.
T
TMC
Guest
C’mon who are you kidding here. Saying that there is a “suspicion” of a nefarious conspiracy and that there is “evidence” of same is making an accusation. How is that not an accusation?
Again, I find it much more likely that the Vatican is accurately portraying Church teaching then that there is some nefarious conspiracy at the highest levels of the Church to twist Church teaching to impact US politics. Is it your view that the Pope and those close to him are simply ignoring the fact that his words are being twisted?
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Hazen_Pingree
Guest
I can’t speak for KSU, but I think you may be pushing your position a bit too hard. There may be some good reasons for KSU to adopt the position taken.
Regarding “suspicion,” “evidence,” and “accusation,” let’s look at those terms forensically. If the police suspect that some one has committed a bank robbery, and, upon searching that person’s belongings, they find large amounts of cash in a duffle bag, that cash would serve as “evidence” to a possible crime. They may think it proper to “accuse” that person of the crime, but they would not do so formally unless and until that evidence had been examined and the context for which that person came into possession of the cash was explored.
Now, in using this example, I’m not suggesting that the Vatican is committing anything “nefarious.” I’m merely looking at the terms being used. And I am certainly not making any accusations against the Church. I am suggesting, however, that there may be “evidence” indicating that there may be some political shenanigans coming out of the VPO that are worthy of further examination. Such a surmise is, of course, speculative, but, given the history of the Vatican over the centuries (and perhaps in recent time), it is not improper for the faithful to monitor the functionaries and functions of the institutional church in Rome.
Finally, I seriously doubt that (using your words) "the Church (is trying) to twist Church teaching to impact US politics." The Church has bigger fish to fry than coercing the US government. But, would some elements who have certain agendas within the organization which is the Vatican want to influence the Church in general? You bet they would.
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LongingSoul
Guest
I think it’s a stretch to say it is used by those defending ‘liturgical abuse’. It’s more the case that people defining something as ‘liturgical abuse’ are the ones wanting to go back to the old ways ‘that have always been’.
The great thing about Pope Francis lessons are that they make many of us feel hopeful and optimistic about Gods mercy. Even if we haven’t found His will perfectly by the time we die, we can trustingly come to His merciful welcome. Why doesn’t that make people feel overjoyed? I am quite bamboozled by the obstinence and the resistance to such a wonderful possibility!
K
KSU
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Thanks, Hazen, but I haven’t adopted any of the positions TMC says I have. Those are just strawmen.
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clem456
Guest
It’s a whole lot of agonizing over pastoral comments designed for the good of everyone. Does anyone doubt the Pope speaks toward the good of the whole flock?
Maybe the conversation illustrates his point.
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abucs
Guest
Maybe the clear evidence of confusion and disappointment at the popes clarity shows whatever he’s doing, it’s not working.
As we have clearly seen over the last 40 years, the devil thrives in ambiguity.
and no that is not asking for some legalistic judgement. It’s asking the pope to have the integrity and honesty to say who he exactly is judging as obstinate because they hold on to the old ways.
I don’t want a vague coward for a pope.
I am not saying he is one, but he needs to make sure he doesn’t go down that well worn 20th century path of creating a dictatorship of relativism in the hope of a fleeting popularity.
I remember someone bravely speaking out in truth and clarity, warning us about that.
As we have clearly seen over the last 40 years, the devil thrives in ambiguity.
and no that is not asking for some legalistic judgement. It’s asking the pope to have the integrity and honesty to say who he exactly is judging as obstinate because they hold on to the old ways.
I don’t want a vague coward for a pope.
I am not saying he is one, but he needs to make sure he doesn’t go down that well worn 20th century path of creating a dictatorship of relativism in the hope of a fleeting popularity.
I remember someone bravely speaking out in truth and clarity, warning us about that.
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graciew
Guest
Code:
So you do not want a vague.coward Pope and it is asking the Pope to have the honesty and integrity.....and that he needs to....?So beg your pardon , what are you saying ?
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abucs
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i am saying this;
and i am saying this
and i am saying this
and among other things i am also saying this:
and i would just add the obvious. Unlike the pope’s address, you know who i am talking about and the actions i am speaking about. If you you can’t find clarity in what i have said, then it is pretty obvious you, as with most others, would not find clarity in what the pope has said.
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graciew
Guest
And does throwing a man under the bus because you say so make you a man of integrity and honesty ?
Or what ?
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abucs
Guest
I would say that throwing anyone under a bus is never a sign that you have honesty and integrity.
I don’t know of anyone who suggests it does. That’s a very vague and off-topic comment if you don’t mind me saying.
Insults and unjust abuse are often cached in vagueness, so we need to be careful and clear in our speech. I trust you are not insulting me in some way with the vague comment above?
I don’t know of anyone who suggests it does. That’s a very vague and off-topic comment if you don’t mind me saying.
Insults and unjust abuse are often cached in vagueness, so we need to be careful and clear in our speech. I trust you are not insulting me in some way with the vague comment above?
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