Pope Francis: Obstinate Christians are Rebels and Idolaters

[TMC]

I would say that throwing anyone under a bus is never a sign that you have honesty and integrity.

I don’t know of anyone who suggests it does. That’s a very vague and off-topic comment if you don’t mind me saying.

Insults and unjust abuse are often cached in vagueness, so we need to be careful and clear in our speech. I trust you are not insulting me in some way with the vague comment above?

No more than you are insulting the Pontiff, I am sure.

 

[abucs]

As i displayed a few posts above, my comments have been very specific.

Please specify where you believe i have insulted the Pontiff. Thank you.

This is another example of why vagueness and criticism are not helpful partners.

I would be only too ready to clarify if you have gleaned unfair insult over perceived vague comments.

This is after all, the very point that is being discussed.

I would not fall back to what i consider a cowardly position … that …everyone must search their own heart for what abucs really means.

No. If you ask me i will tell you. That is simply respectful common courtesy and necessary for open exchange of views, where we journey together as brothers.

 

[clem456]

Not sure if anyone posted this or not:
osservatoreromano.va/en/news/new-wineskins
This part is challenging:

It is the same attitude — the Pope continued, referring to the day’s passage from Mark (2:18-22) — that “Jesus teaches in the Gospel, when the doctors of the law rebuke him because his disciples do not fast: ‘This is how it’s always been done. Why don’t your [disciples] fast?’. And Jesus responds with this principle of life: ‘No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; if he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made. And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; if he does, the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost, and so are the skins; but new wine is for fresh skins’”.
In essence, Francis asked, “what does this mean, that the law has changed? No!”. It means, rather, “that the law is at the service of man, that it is at the service of God, and for this reason man must have an open heart”. The attitude of those who say “this is how it’s always been done…”, in reality, is born from “a closed heart”. Instead, however, “Jesus told us: ‘I will send the Holy Spirit and he will lead you to the full truth”. Thus, “if your heart is closed to the newness of the Holy Spirit, you will never reach the full truth”. Additionally, “your Christian life will be a half and half life, a patched up life, mended with new things but on a structure that is not open to the Lord’s voice: a closed heart, because you are not capable of changing the wineskins”.

One thing Pope Francis is emphasizing is the journey. The Church journeys. He uses the words “lead you” to indicate the Spirit is always moving.
“pneuma”, the Spirit moves gently among us.

And if the kingdom is like a mustard seed, as Jesus himself said, the seed is not the full flowering.
It is true, the seed does contain the essence of the whole thing. There is nothing that will come to be, that is not contained in the seed. None of that is lost. Tradition.

But the seed cannot stay a seed. It breaks open and flowers. It gives itself up in growth, for the sake of the kingdom.

What if the seed insisted on staying a seed? After all, the seed is good. And that would be true, but it would not be fully true. The kingdom cannot come to fruition if the seed insists on staying as it is. looking as it looks, doing as it does (practices, as Francis calls them).

764 "This Kingdom shines out before men in the word, in the works and in the presence of Christ."163 To welcome Jesus’ word is to welcome "the Kingdom itself."164 The seed and beginning of the Kingdom are the “little flock” of those whom Jesus came to gather around him, the flock whose shepherd he is.165 They form Jesus’ true family.166 To those whom he thus gathered around him, he taught a new “way of acting” and a prayer of their own.167

765 The Lord Jesus endowed his community with a structure that will remain until the Kingdom is fully achieved. Before all else there is the choice of the Twelve with Peter as their head.168 Representing the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation stones of the new Jerusalem.169 The Twelve and the other disciples share in Christ’s mission and his power, but also in his lot.170 By all his actions, Christ prepares and builds his Church.

If the Church recognizes the “little flock” as a seed, are we to suppose that we are the finished product? Or are we part of that same organic Church?
The Church

is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom."178
…
The Church - perfected in glory

769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials.

 

[KSU]

Thank you, clem, for providing the link in your #273 to the Pope’s entire statement. The OP is just Vatican Radio’s selected portion. Reading all of it reminded me that Pope Francis, unless he is speaking off the cuff, often includes a little “kicker” to the main point so as to stay between the white lines of doctrine.

Take for example his sometimes magnificent, sometimes jaw-dropping Encyclical, LAUDATO SI’. Although he irritated and turned off many people, including impartial scientists, by basing the encyclical on his stated belief that “Climate Change” probably was at least partially caused by man, he also tucked away a kicker or two such as the traditional teaching that science was the province of the competent secular realm, not the Church. The other kicker was something to the effect that a gigantic tax would not solve the problem.

I still can hear the delectable screams of anguish from the White House. I believe it had been assumed that after all their schmoozing, including face to face between the Pope and the President at the Vatican, and given at least one horribly partisan, loud Vatican entity catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1092
they had Francis in the bag. Sorry, but our Pope is not for sale.

The particular kicker I have in mind, not included by Vatican Radio in the OP, is the conclusion:

The Pope then remarked that this “is the message that the Church gives us today: that which Jesus says so firmly: ‘New wine in new wineskins!’”. Because, Francis reiterated, “even customs must be renewed in the newness of the Holy Spirit, in the surprises of God”. Before continuing with the celebration, Francis expressed the hope that “the Lord give us the grace of an open heart, of a heart open to the voice of the Holy Spirit, ** which can discern what must not change, because it is fundamental,** from what has [to] change in order to be able to receive the newness of the Holy Spirit”. (My bold)

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

I’ve never known a time in my life, when asking for a little clarity has suddenly been deemed so unneccessary and even offensive to alot people.

I have obliged, in my 211.

 

[pleasehelp]

Beautiful explanation clem 456. Thank you. God bless us all.

 

[Faith1960]

IMO, this was the problem back when Francis visited the US, everyone expected him to talk tough on abortion, SSM, but he barely alluded to these topics, choosing instead to speak very vaguely. I think thats why just about everyone was happy with his visit, when in reality, there should have been plenty of people that were upset about things he said…after all that is to be expected, especially in a nation like the US, one of the most hedonistic, liberal countries in the world, but even the US mainstream media was praising him…??? LOL, something very wrong with that imo!!!

It was once said, when there is no opposition to what someone has said, it usually means they have said nothing at all…I think this is especially true when it comes to a person such as the Pope and his speeches.

I think I asked you this already but forgot your answer. Are you still Catholic?

 

[mikekle]

I think I asked you this already but forgot your answer. Are you still Catholic?

Yes, I may get upset with some things the CC does and I definitely do not agree with everything they claim, but when it comes to the major issues, Im catholic.

 

[pleasehelp]

What are these claims you cannot agree on?
Maybe it is a case that you misunderstand something.

 

[otjm]

What are these claims you cannot agree on?
Maybe it is a case that you misunderstand something.

That should be done in a new thread. It is off topic.