I’m increasingly coming to believe that Pope Francis has a problem with traditionalists. And as a traditionalist, this disturbs and worries me. I base any opinions I have about him purely on his words and actions. And right now, that means I have growing concerns.In all sincerity and charity, I think you really need to examine your thoughts and feelings. It cannot be good to hold such harsh feelings for the Pope. He is the Vicar of Christ on Earth, and while he may be doing things that you don’t like or things that you don’t understand, I believe that we should always give the greatest deference and charity to him. Does anyone truly believe that the Pope is acting out of malice as opposed to someone sincerely trying to please God and do God’s work?
I think you are correct, but the reason for the acceleration is more important. This has been called the information age. I also like to think of this as the communication age. The transfer of information has occurred across cultures and nations. It has brought a classlessness of communication on the internet. As a result, all humanity is in a state of rapid cultural amalgamation. For good or bad, we will never be the same. ISIS has shown us one response to this. Radical Islam, in a sense, is understandable from a primitive point of view. It is the ultimate embodiment of “I will not change” in that it seeks to kill to stop change. While no Catholics would do this, there are some who have gone so far to cut themselves off from the Body of Christ to maintain the status quo.Unfortunately our weak human condition leads us to constantly seek out the new and shiny. Only to find out at some point that new and shiny is often a poor replacement for what we had. Modernization has only accelerated this “new and shiny” phenomena to the point now that everything more than a couple years old is suspect.
Exactly.I love it, but its not the way I would live everyday.
From the laws of physics, however, acceleration implies force. In other words, it isn’t “organic” and natural. As I tried to show above, this doesn’t always provide the best results.I think you are correct, but the reason for the acceleration is more important. This has been called the information age.
For starters, I have read absolutely nothing which reports that he used the word “in”, or anything even remotely near that, concerning the change to the foot washing ceremony. Please cite your source.Here’s the thing. The foot washing ceremony at Mass on Holy Thursday is a small “t” tradition. It can be changed at any time by the Pope. He could abolish it, if he wants. No one disputes that. But, Pope Francis essentially just told us is that to prefer it the way it has been done in the past, out of reverence for tradition, is a sin.
That is one of the most egregious comments I have seen on CAF; It is not the Pope who has contempt for traditional people, but rather some people who style themselves as “traditional” who have contempt for him. And that area is off thread.He clearly loathes the fact that many Catholics are very traditional people. They like their traditions and don’t want them thrown out. Clearly, this makes Pope Francis angry. He sees it as irrational obstinance - as an obstacle and a stumbling block. He cannot conceal his contempt for us.
That initial part is an outright lie. I defy you to cite anything as a source.He mocks tradtional devotions like the Rosary or Novenas. He changes traditions to suit his own agenda. And then he calls those who are dismayed by it “idolaters.”
From Audience with Pope Francis CLAR, 06.06.13I share with you two concerns. One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council… One feels in 1940… An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: “Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries.” Why don’t they say, ‘we pray for you, we ask…’, but this thing of counting… And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today…
But instead of being inherently hostile towards the admonitions, why not examine them for merit? This is not a power struggle. It is a coaxing to all of us to really get the hang of a new way of relating to God and each other. My impetus for the last few years has been the Church’s intensity for the prophetic messages of St Faustina about how we need to take Gods merciful nature seriously. Nothing in my life has directly soothed my fears more than what she says Jesus told her about Gods mercy. Pope Francis says "Let us live this Jubilee intensely, begging the Father to forgive our sins and to bathe us in his merciful “indulgence.”I’m increasingly coming to believe that Pope Francis has a problem with traditionalists. And as a traditionalist, this disturbs and worries me. I base any opinions I have about him purely on his words and actions. And right now, that means I have growing concerns.
And there you have nailed the issue right on the head.As a matter of fact you do need the brass jug and the nine days (read the article), but the real point is that if something handed down to us by our fathers works, we shouldn’t try fixing it even if we don’t understand it. And if we think we understand it, better not try fixing it anyway in case we break it because we don’t really understand it all that well.
But that isn’t any insult to the Rosary. He’s expressed frustration at that whole quantity rather than quality attitude.I hadn’t heard that Pope Francis had said anything negaticve about the Rosary so I looked it up. This is what I found
From Audience with Pope Francis CLAR, 06.06.13
There was a reason why some of us had missals well prior to the introduction of the OF, with Latin on one side and English on the other. It kept us focused on the Mass, rather than simply going in and day dreaming, or saying our rosary, or reading the bulletin, or reading a pamphlet containing some non-liturgical devotion.But you don’t have to study Latin much to appreciate the EF because it’s the contemplative prayer and non-verbal communication that make it work, not vocal prayer so much.
This is an excellent post for tradition for the sake of tradition. But what you fail to acknowledge is that we have both 2,000 years worth of tradition, and 2,000 years of history of some traditions being dropped with others added, and some being modified from time to time, all the way along that 2,000 years.Tradition is indeed something solid for us to hold on to. And eroding it is a slippery slope. You abolish one little tradition. And another. And another. Why should a priest wear vestments? Tradition. Let’s just have him swear a shirt and tie instead. Why have a crucifix in a church? Tradition? OK, let’s just have a nice picture for people to look at instead. Why use bread and wine for communion? Tradition? Wouldn’t people like coffee and donuts more? Its a slippery slope. Traditions need to be maintained, just as rubrics have to be followed to the letter. Every time there are liturgical abuses, and every time accommodations are made for those carrying out the abuses, the rich past of the church is eroded and we move closer towards a bland indifferent post-modernism that says that any practice is acceptable and no ritual is needed. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. But those trying to chalk the line and being bitterly opposed and called idolators because they believe in something. This is how divisions begin. Pope Francis goes around apologising and embracing every non-Catholic group out there. But when it comes to showing tolerance and mercy to different groups within the church, a very different attitude.
Four out of the last five Popes have had the same issue, particularly with the most adamant of them (the SSPX) - one of them having such a short reign he said little if anything about the matter.I’m increasingly coming to believe that Pope Francis has a problem with traditionalists. And as a traditionalist, this disturbs and worries me. I base any opinions I have about him purely on his words and actions. And right now, that means I have growing concerns.
That was not directed to the Rosary; it was directed to the SSPX.I hadn’t heard that Pope Francis had said anything negaticve about the Rosary so I looked it up. This is what I found
From Audience with Pope Francis CLAR, 06.06.13
Ah, yes, I am sure the “God of Surprises” is about to pop something entirely new on us any moment now. There are a lot of people who fear those are code words for “I’m going to change everything on you and you’d better agree or you are against God.”He said none of these things, either “clearly” or “essentially”.
What he said, to use one quote, “It’s as if they went about by guessing: ‘What has been said and what doesn’t change is what’s important; what I hear—from myself and my closed heart—more(note this word) than the Word of the Lord.’”
Anything we elevate above God is idolatry. I understand the desire for the status quo. I also respect the spirituality of those who consider themselves traditionalist. However, God calls us to look past ourselves and to the needs of others. This means we have to be open to the Holy Spirit above all else. While I understand our human nature and desires, to place our own needs above others, much less above what God is wanting to do, belies the spirituality of traditionalism. After being here at CAF, I do not really see this widespread, though we do have the best of the best here. Rather, it seems those with the greatest true tradition spirituality understand the value of putting others first, as well as the value of suffering. (cue “Gather Us In”)
This seems to be about the practice of offering a “spiritual bouquet” to someone. This practice is far from defunct, at least around here. There are Catholic groups who ask their members to pledge prayers for benefactors and other purposes. I would not be dismayed if some friend told me he was praying a rosary a week for my intentions for a year–a 52 rosary spiritual bouquet.I hadn’t heard that Pope Francis had said anything negaticve about the Rosary so I looked it up. This is what I found:
Quote:
I share with you two concerns. One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council… One feels in 1940… An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: “Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries.” Why don’t they say, ‘we pray for you, we ask…’, but this thing of counting… And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today…
From Audience with Pope Francis CLAR, 06.06.13
Be not afraid. There are no code words or conspiracies. Everything will not change. Most will not change.There are a lot of people who fear those are code words for “I’m going to change everything on you and you’d better agree or you are against God.”
No one.Who says tradition is unattractive to people? Who says that in order to “put others first” you must always be offering something “new” and “innovative.”
It would be, but like above, no one said this.I just think it goes way overboard to call people who love the Catholic Church’s small “t” traditions “idolaters” who are guilty of the sin of “divination.” At the very least, it seem unchaitable.
Most people who pay attention to a lot of the news know that the group who offered the 3,000+ rosaries, know that it was offered by the SSPX; I don’t want to derail the thread, but his comments were directed in that direction.Ah, yes, I am sure the “God of Surprises” is about to pop something entirely new on us any moment now. There are a lot of people who fear those are code words for “I’m going to change everything on you and you’d better agree or you are against God.”
Who says tradition is unattractive to people? Who says that in order to “put others first” you must always be offering something “new” and “innovative.” Perhaps the opposite is true?
I am no traddy. I have only ever attended one Latin Mass, and I didn’t care for it all that much. I just think it goes way overboard to call people who love the Catholic Church’s small “t” traditions “idolaters” who are guilty of the sin of “divination.” At the very least, it seem uncharitable.
I like Rush but I think he should have cut the Pope a little slack here, especially after the banking collapse of 2007-2008, if not years before. Paulson and Bernanke admitted themselves that they only had wished some regulations would have been imposed against the banks and their financial interests outside lending money. The term “moral hazard” was used a lot in bailing them all out in fact. Systemic failure is a lot different, however, than capitalistic failure.… the poorly worded, seemingly rushed and factually badly translated exhortation, EVANGELII GAUDIUM, which understandably stunned and hurt some big-money Catholic donors, as well as some powerful and friendly non-Catholics (see for example rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/11/27/it_s_sad_how_wrong_pope_francis_is_unless_it_s_a_deliberate_mistranslation_by_leftists)