Pope Francis on Divorce and Remarriage

[Elizium23]

The Church won’t make you a pariah. That’s your own choice and your own action.

 

[Burdock]

Im with you carajentzen. As I said every circumstance is different. People are so blblinkered on here.

 

[Brendan]

I have read jeremiah 3. Things were very different then.** I still feel that the innocent party should not be treated like that**.

Like Israel treated God?? Yes I agree wholeheartly. God should never have been treated that way, and being God, would have had every right to have rejected the Jewish people and not fulfilled His part of the Covenant.

Has God changed that much that His example no longer applies to our society. Or is it that the people are now incapable of acting as God would?

So the question then becomes, under what circumstances should the Church either encourage or support someone acting contrary to the example that God Himself showed.

All this reminds me of a quote by G.K. Chesterton “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”

Being a Christian IS hard. It is counter cultural. It involves picking up whatever cross we find ourselves given in life and bearing that as Christ would.

 

[Burdock]

As ive already said , each case is different. This is like banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[Brendan]

As ive already said , each case is different. This is like banging my head against a brick wall.

You say that each case is different, but you have not shown that any such different invalidates Christ’s own words on the subject.

Where would the Church get the authority to unjoin what God has joined?

Or are you claiming that it already has that authority, and Christ was lying to us when He made that statement? That humans really CAN undo what God has joined?

 

[Burdock]

This is just going round in circles. I have my views , you have yours.

 

[Burdock]

This is just going round in circles. I have my views , you have yours.

 

[Tomdstone]

Where would the Church get the authority to unjoin what God has joined?

Or are you claiming that it already has that authority, and Christ was lying to us when He made that statement? That humans really CAN undo what God has joined?

Before 1054 AD, Rome was in communion with the Eastern Orthodox (Greek) church.
Did Rome ever object, when the Eastern Orthodox Church (before 1054 A.D.) allowed divorce and remarriage?

 

[SaintAugustine]

Before 1054 AD, Rome was in communion with the Eastern Orthodox (Greek) church.
Did Rome ever object, when the Eastern Orthodox Church (before 1054 A.D.) allowed divorce and remarriage?

Did the Eastern Orthodox part of the Catholic Church (before 1054 A.D.) allow divorce and remarriage? Can you provide some evidence of that?

 

[SaintAugustine]

I am in the process of RCIA. I hope you have patience with my story and I’ll try to be brief.
I married at 19. I wanted children badly. My husband first said yes, and went along with this idea. Two years in, he put his foot down, said no kids, that’s final. I stayed for awhile, hoping things would change. Sadly no. I left. We divorced. Neither of us claimed a religion at that point.

I remarried at 23. My husband was a protestant. I was baptized protestant, 7 months later and became quite devout - much more so than he ever was. After much prayer and doctors appointments and money we had 2 children. He was away a lot with his work. I was nearly a single mom most of the time. Some days he would work 16 hours. He retired at age 53, 3 years ago. He completely changed. He had a temper. He alienated his children. He started yelling, swearing. Throwing things. Calling me names. Being suspicious of me and the kids’ activities. He took control of all our money. He put me on an allowance, even for my own personal food. At the last week of the month, I’d run out of money, and run out of food. I got down to 102 lbs. I became severely depressed. It angered him because I was ruining his retirement. I tried to commit suicide 8 times rather than divorce him. I finally got help and God healed my depression. The kids and I left (they had a choice). I filed for divorce. We did go through counseling. He was so destructive the counselor couldn’t get through to him.

Our divorce, unless the attorneys mess it up any more, should be finally official 01/01/14.

I’ve met a wonderful Catholic gentleman (in every sense of the word) and we’ve fallen in love. We go to mass every Sunday. I really wanted so much to marry within the Catholic Church - to “do it right” for once in my life. So, I need 2 annulments.

1 parish said the annulments could take up to 5 years with no guarantee and I cant take communion until then.

2nd parish says ok to communion, but same about length of time on annulments. No marriage in Catholic church. Get married elsewhere.

Im sorry, but does anyone get that I feel like a bloody leper? Here I am trying to do everything right… take RCIA, change my faith, do whatever it takes… and sorry, you’re not good enough still. I think this is what Pope Francis understands… is this what Jesus would want about his children? Is this how the father treated his prodigal son? Did he tell him go eat somewhere else?

Ok, whaddyall think?

Jesus would know the situation intuitively (He’s God after all) and either tell you both your previous marriages weren’t valid (annulment) or tell you one of them isn’t. The Church doesn’t have that ability, so it has to go through the annulment process to determine the situation.

It doesn’t make you a leper. It just means the Church takes your (and everyone else’s) marriage vows (you know, the ones that typically say “til death do us part”) seriously. I hope you can understand that, continue your journey, and make everything right with your past marriages.

God loves you. The Church loves you.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I do think the church has to have more compassion If a husband or wife has been left because of adultery . Why should the innocent party be denied communion if they remarry. Why should they be condemned to a life of celibacy through no fault of their own.I dont think our lord would want this.

The Church does have compassion. If someone is divorced, they can receive Communion. Once they have the annulment, if the case for annulment is there (as you say, every case is different) they can remarry.

 

[vsedriver]

Things are not always black and white.

most of us would prefer that things were not so black and white. Gray gives us a lot of wiggle room. But if we stick to the black and white things really are much better for us and for society.

 

[Brendan]

Before 1054 AD, Rome was in communion with the Eastern Orthodox (Greek) church.
Did Rome ever object, when the Eastern Orthodox Church (before 1054 A.D.) allowed divorce and remarriage?

Rome never recognized any of those attempts at remarriage.

 

[carajentzen]

Well im sorry but that is not right.The church has to have more compassion.

Amen… And I believe Pope Francis understands this. Prepare for more compassion coming from the Vatican and less inflexible hard line Pharisee-like dogma dictating bishops and diosees - after all 5% of the US is divorced, a much higher rate uses birth control. Are we checking everyone’s sin card at the door and not distributing communion to them? Or are we just picking on a few vulnerable people? How many people do you know in your parish that are divorced? I guarantee you MOST have not gotten annulments and yet are offered full sacraments and are not treated like trash like we who are trying to follow all the rules and do what’s right. We are branded with a scarlet letter, told we are grievous sinners and don’t deserve a new life orGod’s love. As a new Catholic convert, you people scare the hell out of me.

 

[SaintAugustine]

Amen… And I believe Pope Francis understands this. Prepare for more compassion coming from the Vatican and less inflexible hard line Pharisee-like dogma dictating bishops and diosees - after all 5% of the US is divorced, a much higher rate uses birth control. Are we checking everyone’s sin card at the door and not distributing communion to them? Or are we just picking on a few vulnerable people? How many people do you know in your parish that are divorced? I guarantee you MOST have not gotten annulments and yet are offered full sacraments and are not treated like trash like we who are trying to follow all the rules and do what’s right. We are branded with a scarlet letter, told we are grievous sinners and don’t deserve a new life orGod’s love. As a new Catholic convert, you people scare the hell out of me.

I’m sorry, but that is ridiculous.

As far as your statement regarding divorced and contraceptive using people, it is true that many receive Communion. The priests and bishops don’t “check everyone’s sin card at the door.” In fact, many people rarely go to Confession. Sadly, there are many who aren’t concerned with being in a state of grace when receiving.

It’s not Pharisee-like dogma, it is understanding what Jesus asks and humbly responding to it. Jesus is Our Lord and Savior. He deserves our faithfulness and love. We deserve nothing, yet He gives it to us.

 

[Crickabelle]

Well im sorry but that is not right.The church has to have more compassion.

My friend, do not borrow worries. Should a devoted Cathlic find him or herself in this tragic situation, faith dictates patience. Let us not be hasty, or think that we could possibly know what our response might be with regard to every “whait if” that we can conjure up.

A number of years ago, I found myself separated from my husband, desperately wanting “overs” but in time I came to understand the beauty of the holy scripture and fully accepted that if we ended up divorced, I could not even think about dating without committing grave sin.

Presently, my husband and I are happy together and I cannot imagine my life without him.

The counsel to St. Paul is pertinent to everyone who finds himself in difficult situations, “My grace is sufficient for you.”

Hold fast in faith.

In Christ,
Kim

 

[Corki]

Amen… And I believe Pope Francis understands this. Prepare for more compassion coming from the Vatican and less inflexible hard line Pharisee-like dogma dictating bishops and diosees - .

Here we go again. Pope Francis is the “good Pope” who will undo all of the “bad” of his predecessors. :banghead:

FWIW, Pope Benedict opened up the question of how to do a better job at reaching out to divorced and remarried Catholics long before anyone heard of Pope Francis.

after all 5% of the US is divorced, a much higher rate uses birth control. Are we checking everyone’s sin card at the door and not distributing communion to them?

And I am sure that an even higher percentage tell lies, cheat on their taxes or disrespect their elders. But the Church isn’t going to start telling them that that is ok either.

Or are we just picking on a few vulnerable people? How many people do you know in your parish that are divorced?

Unfortunately quite a few.

I guarantee you MOST have not gotten annulments and yet are offered full sacraments and are not treated like trash like we who are trying to follow all the rules and do what’s right.

In my parish (and I hope most other Catholic parishes) no one is offered “full sacraments” if they are “married” outside of the Church. That includes those who divorced and re-married as well as those who get married civally or in another Church without dispensation.
There is no singling out or “treating like trash” of divorced Catholics. In fact, anyone who is divorced and who does** not** then attempt a second marriage is of course welcome to the Sacraments.

We are branded with a scarlet letter, told we are grievous sinners and don’t deserve a new life orGod’s love. As a new Catholic convert, you people scare the hell out of me

I don’t know where you live but no one is publicly shamed with a scarlet letter, even a metaphoric one. But that doesn’t mean that the reality of the first marriage can just be wished away. It IS a serious sin to renounce one spouse and take another. It IS a serious sin to attempt marriage outside of the Church. And no amount of “compassion” can change that. There are, of course, marriages that are deficient. That’s what tribunals are all about - to investigate and heal. What is not “ok” is for someone to decide that he/she when admittedly vulnerable, is also objective enough and learned enough in moral theology to determine his/her first marriage as flawed AND his/her freedom to remarry without any help from experts. That scares the heck out of me.

 

[Tomdstone]

Did the Eastern Orthodox part of the Catholic Church (before 1054 A.D.) allow divorce and remarriage? Can you provide some evidence of that?

I understand that it did, yes. However, only for very serious reasons, and after a period of penance. See canon 87 of Sixth Ecumenical Council.

 

[SaintAugustine]

I understand that it did, yes. And Rome did not object.

That’s your evidence? Lol…

 

[Elizium23]

Evidence