S
stinkcat_14
Guest
I was an altar server in the 70s when there were no altar girls. It was not exactly a panacea for vocations.
- Status
L
LittleFlower378
Guest
I humbly disagree, and that’s ok. Just curious, why would you celebrate that. Do you not think young men would benefit (possibly a call to the priesthood) to be close to the altar and participating in the mass in a special way? Was there just not enough help?
G
Ginny89
Guest
It doesn’t need to have been recorded in scripture to have happened. Catholics don’t follow sola scriptura.
I think it is a stretch to claim that St. Peter wasn’t married when he was living with his mother-in-law, considering there is no tradition that survives from the fathers that claims him as a celibate. Moreover, scripture DOES record evidence of the ordination of married men to Holy Orders and on top of it all, by all accounts, the early church believed that a good number of the apostles were married and had children. Only a few apostles like St. John and his brother were universally claimed to have been life-long celibates.
C
ctb95
Guest
I have no idea what having married priests has to do with “bringing the Church into the 21st Century.”
L
LittleFlower378
Guest
I agree. Is something like this brought up because it will truly help the Church or is this some sort of modernism, trying to keep up with the culture.
T
twf
Guest
Yeah, that’s a very odd comment in this context. Ordaining married men to the priesthood is an ancient practice, not a 21st century novelty. Perhaps this poster was suggesting that celibacy is outdated and has no place in the 21st century. The Church will always laud celibacy and it will always be a part of religious life, if nothing else…regardless of how many married priests we have.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
It was not simply me celebrating…it was my whole parish. Those women and girls who wanted to participate in this ministry and those in the parish who were of the mind that it was unfair for them not to be able to serve in this role.
We had women and girls who were proclaiming the readings. We had women extraordinary ministers. We had women Religious who served as pastoral associates in parishes.
There was no sustainable theological reason whereby a woman could proclaim the word of God from the pulpit but she could not carry the processional crucifix and lead the entry and exit procession.
There was no sustainable theological reason for why a woman could distribute the consecrated Eucharist but could not hand back and forth to the priest or deacon the empty sacred vessels from the credence table or the cruets of water and the unconsecrated wine.
There was no sustainable theological reason that a woman who was extraordinary minister could preside at a Communion service at the local nursing home but could not hold the missal for the priest as he celebrated Mass or help to arrange the altar at the offertory and after Communion or be the thurifer or candle-bearer at Mass.
Far more boys and girls who have served Mass for me and other parishes have gone on from there to other involvements in lay ministry and lay apostolates than have pursued a vocation to consecrated life or, for the men, ordained ministry.
Given the vast numbers who serve each year as opposed to the few who pursue a vocation outside the lay state, it is absurd to reserve this serving at the altar to young men.
And no…we did not have a shortage of boys/young men. It was, however, no longer reserved to them but rather opened to everyone.
T
twf
Guest
The Eastern Churches generally continue to maintain the ancient tradition of an all male ensemble behind the iconostasis. That being said, even in Orthodox circles I believe there are exceptions for deaconesses and nuns in certain monastic settings.
I personally do not have particularly strong feelings on the subject, but I do have a sincere question for you Father. As I understand it, St. John Paul II left the decision to the local bishop and/or even the particular local parish pastor. Furthermore ,I believe that during his pontificate, female altar servers were not introduced in Rome itself. If there were no theological reasons to sustain the older tradition, why leave any restrictions in place at all? Why not universally permit female altar servers? I know that even in my own archdiocese there are some parishes where female servers are not permitted. Our current and previous couple archbishops have left the decision to the individual pastor.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
The issue was not theological…it was pastoral. Some people, clergy and laity, found it more difficult to accept than others. We were fortunate to have a bishop in the moment who conveyed his expectation that the provision would be implemented instantly and without any resistance. The presbyterate simply acceded, although the decision was not greeted with joy in every quarter.The Eastern Churches generally continue to maintain the ancient tradition of an all male ensemble behind the iconostasis. That being said, even in Orthodox circles I believe there are exceptions for deaconesses and nuns in certain monastic settings.
I personally do not have particularly strong feelings on the subject, but I do have a sincere question for you Father. As I understand it, St. John Paul II left the decision to the local bishop and/or even the particular local parish pastor. Furthermore ,I believe that during his pontificate, female altar servers were not introduced in Rome itself. If there were no theological reasons to sustain the older tradition, why leave any restrictions in place at all? Why not universally permit female altar servers? I know that even in my own archdiocese there are some parishes where female servers are not permitted. Our current and previous couple archbishops have left the decision to the individual pastor.
Having been in other places, I have seen where the petition to do something that is, in fact, approved but is denied locally simply engenders its own forms of strife and resentment.
What is important is that theologically women may now serve at the altar. Theologically, lay people may be extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Theologically, lay people may preside at Sunday Celebrations in the Absence of a Priest. Theologically, lay people may now preside at the conferral of those blessings accommodated thus in The Book of Blessings.
Yes, this diocese or that parish may resist doing any of these things…but the Church has granted it and therefore every Catholic must acknowledge and submit to the reality that this is the Church’s decision on this matter, whether it is done in their presence or not, just as we embraced the return of a wide scale married clergy in the Occidental Church with the establishment of the Permanent Diaconate, after the Council.
The United States and Germany led the way but now other countries are catching up with the passage of years and the acceptance that this was the will of God and the operation of the Holy Spirit. I remember an opposition in thoe early years that has, thankfully, been overcome.
We will soon see the 50th anniversary of the first ordinations of permanent deacons. How quickly and how aggressively did your archdiocese promote the permanent diaconate? Again, as with your question, it is not a matter of theology, because there can be no question with regard to theology…it is a pastoral decision to implement an initiative.
There were girls who were altar servers in Rome in the 1990s. I remember them quite well.
P
pnewton
Guest
T
twf
Guest
Interesting. Thanks for your reply Father.
Actually, we’ve only had a permanent diaconate formation program for the past 5 or 6 years. His Grace acted, I believe, on one of the recommendations of a diocesan synod that was held a decade or so ago under his predecessor. A number of married men have now been ordained. I have yet to have interacted with one of the newly ordained deacons myself, but I am sure they will be a blessing to the archdiocese. As I understand it, very few Western Canadian dioceses restored the permanent diaconate in the wake of Vatican II. That may be changing now. Our seminary is attached to the local Benedictine Abbey. I believe men being formed for the permanent diaconate spend some time up there as well.
I
Inisfallen
Guest
We’ve got one in my diocese too. The pastor introduced him to the congregation at Christmas Mass year before last, and said “don’t be surprised if you see Father [name] walking around with his wife and two kids – he came to us from the Episcopalian Church, and I hope everyone gives him a great welcome.”
Everyone did. He’s a nice guy and a good priest.
We’ve also got a Maronite church a couple of blocks away, and I believe their priests are permitted to be married. And there’s a Greek Orthodox church in the neighborhood, too, and an Episcopalian church (not the one our priest came from), so everyone in the area is pretty familiar with married priests.
I
Inisfallen
Guest
I personally know a couple of Protestant ministers who do a great job both as ministers and as husbands and fathers. And Orthodox priests have been doing it for centuries, as have rabbis.
I’m sure it’s hard, but it can be done.
T
twf
Guest
One thing often missed in these discussions is that the priest’s wife takes on some of his pastoral burden. In the Greek tradition she is honored with the title “Presbytera” (feminine form of “priest” - just like the wife of a Duke is a Duchess or the wife of a King is a Queen, even if the wife doesn’t hold office or title in her own “right”). In the Russian tradition she is called the equivalent of “mother”. The priest’s wife becomes a spiritual mother to the parish.
C
commenter
Guest
Would it be true to say that girls are **permitted **to serve at the altar, but that boys are encouraged? This is from a tract “Mass Confusion” by Catholic Answers.
I appreciate your careful use of the term “extraordinary”. I have been to Masses where the priest sat down after presenting Communion to those on the altar, so they - often called “Eucharistic Ministers” rather than “Extraordinary Ministers” - would distribute Communion to the greatest number; as an opportunity kind of thing, rather than necessity.
Some people read “lay people may preside at Sunday celebrations in the Absence of a Priest”, and they drop the words after "celebrations. Sometimes a practice is intended in extreme necessity - for example, communion services can be held in a remote location, where people have little transportation, and a priest can be spared only one afternoon a month. But then it gets extended as a universal “right”, so we should encourage people to come to our communion service here at St John Church, rather than encouraging them to Mass at St. Matt Church, 4 blocks away. I think many young people have been so heavily shaped by the idea of “I have a right to Holy Communion”, and so little taught about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, they would not see any reason to travel the extra 4 blocks.
I am a little unclear about lay people doing - or leading? - the “blessings”. I think people are comfortable with the father, or anyone, blessing the food in their own home, essentially the whole group says Grace. But I have seen situations where a nun “blessed” with holy water a new college building, although a priest was nearby anyway. The message clearly was “WE can do this, too!”
I am guessing you will cite some regulation that ONLY a priest or bishop can bless certain things (like the altar of a church!) but would you agree that abuses are possible in the current climate, where priest/layperson roles are blurred?
C
ctb95
Guest
I just want good altar servers. At my parish back home, both the male and female altar servers are terrible.
D
Don_Ruggero
Guest
That is a truly lamentable situation.
C
ctb95
Guest
To be fair, it could be worse. But, our altar servers seem disinterested and apathetic. They also occasionally talk to each other and laugh. Personally, I think the apathetic altar servers are a sign of how apathetic the parish is as a whole. However, our priest is pushing for better servers though, so that’s a plus.
At my college, I enjoy altar serving and I try to do my best. So it annoys me when others don’t care.
H
hwriggles4
Guest
Jedliz:
About the Eastern Rite - at least in the United States, many of their congregations are rather small, so the balance of the two vocations may be easier. I do know if married, the priest must be married prior to ordination, and cannot remarry. I’ve heard that many wives of Easter Rite priests were daughters of an Eastern Rite priest, so they have a little more understanding of what life will be like when married to a priest.
Yes, there are exceptions for those coming in under the Pastoral Provision.
As far as moving around, if there were an abundance of married priests I could envision the phones at the chancery office ringing off the hook. These phone calls would be wives wanting to speak to the bishop about:
- “What?” You are transferring my husband out to the boondocks? Why? What for?
- What? You can’t transfer my husband. There’s no way I am going to live in a crime infested ghetto?
H
hwriggles4
Guest
As I read some articles about Pope Francis being open to ordaining some married men as priests, here were a few thoughts:
*]Pope Francis did mention he was open to areas that were a long way away from a priest. The mainstream media buried this part in their story.
*]Pope Francis did mention he was open more to older men. Again, the mainstream media didn’t highlight this very much.
*]Pope Francis seemed to be more open to doing this in Argentina, which sadly has low Mass attendance and a culture that has mainstreamed pornography and premarital relations, which is an attack on preserving celibacy for priests and the sacredness of sex per the marriage bond between a husband and a wife.
Now, here are a few opinions from me:
*]First, I don’t think married priests will be approved anytime soon. This will probably be a commission on paper that will be forgotten in a year or two.
*]Second, if I am wrong about the first one, the Pope could start asking permanent deacons who have retired from their “9 to 5” job and no longer have children at home if they would be open to the priesthood. Honestly, if the Pope did approved married, older priests, starting with older permanent deacons would be a good way to start in the United States and Canada. Their wives would have to approve of it, and they would have to undergo some additional formation.
]Third, a permanent deacon (or a married man) with children at home and a 9-to-5 job have a hard enough time juggling two vocations. This is one reason today that many do not enter the permanent diaconate until they have retired from the 9-to-5 world and/or their children are no longer dependents on a financial scale. ( Sidebar: While there have been a few exceptions - the majority of those priests accepted under the Pastoral Provision are “empty nesters”.)
]Fourth,being a priest is a special calling (and the permanent diaconate is a different vocation - even though many Catholics misunderstand this vocation), and I don’t forsee that if married priests are approved tomorrow, that married Catholic men will be running in droves to the nearest Catholic seminary. ** In other words, changing the discipline is not an “end all” to the priest shortage.
*]Fifth, I’ve said several times on these boards that I know a few priests that were widowed. At least three are still in active ministry, while another is deceased (he had been a doctor before becoming a priest, and our bishop at that time tried to keep him out of the seminary, but this priest overcame that obstacle). The widowed priests I have met bring good gifts to the priesthood, and many can relate to families (two of them raised families with 4 to 7 children) and understand family responsibility of homework, chores, sports, prayer, etc. These gifts are helpful as a diocesan priest. In addition, most widowers who are candidates for seminary have to be free of financial obligations to children, which allows them more time for ministry.
I hope this is helpful. I posted something similar to this on a secular news article as well, since the mainstream media doesn’t have much of a clue on how the church works. Many just saw “married priests”, and probably thought “oh, that means the following Sunday our pastor will have a wife.”
- Status