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Convert_in_99
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Because there are now Pope Francis Catholics.
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pnewton
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That happens from both sides of this issue, like the idea that tradition is on the side of an all male diaconate. Only when we define tradition as starting at a certain date, well after the first few generations of the Church is tradition on the side of an all male diaconate. The reality of female deacons in the early Church has never been denied. It is the role of the this class that is questioned.
In any case, if the Holy Father sees her as a valuable addition to this commission, perhaps there is some purpose he knows that we do not. I would hope that there are people on the commission that most would agree with, and some that most do not agree with. Diversity of thought has often serve the Church well, since we are dealing with an issue that is not doctrinal truth.
I think it likely we will see an ordained deaconess in soon, though who really knows. If we do, it may or may not be the same as a deacon and may or may not have the same canonical role.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the role of the permanent, married, ordained deacon only a recent development in terms of how the Church operates? I wonder if back then they had some of the same disagreement and argument.
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FrDavid96
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Untrue.
The diaconate has always been all-male.
Yes, there were deaconesses. These were not deacons.
Since there were no such thing as female deacons, what you just posted is completely untrue.
The historical record is indisputable: a deaconess was not a female deacon. They were 2 completely distinct and separate offices.
He is willing to listen to anyone who has something to say. That’s his style.
We already know that female deacons are an impossibility.
Whether or not the office of deaconess will see a return is a matter of speculation.
Sure, the diaconate as it operates today is new. The office of deacon hasn’t changed, but the practical application of it has been constantly changing, but never any of the essentials. That does not mean, however, that we can change the essentials of the diaconate today. One of those essentials is that only a man can be ordained.Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the role of the permanent, married, ordained deacon only a recent development in terms of how the Church operates? I wonder if back then they had some of the same disagreement and argument.
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pnewton
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You gotta love rhetoric. For that matter, English wasn’t even spoken. Yet interestingly enough, the Greek word for both roles was the same, even though nouns have gender. That is why Peter was called Petros and not Petra. Yes, historically they had different roles. I just want to make clear that this is not in dispute. What is in dispute is what will happen. Because…
This was not been defined by the Church. John Paul II could have defined it when he spoke with authority on the all male priesthood. It means nothing that he did not do so, except that he literally did not pronounce this a theological impossibility.
As there is some matter of disagreement to whether this is doctrine, I commend you to your understanding of it. As the Holy Father has commission the topic to be considered, I await his understanding. He called the commission. Heck, even at the level of bishop there is not always agreement, so I would think caution should prevail over certitude.
FYI - For those interested in some of the backstory, here is a very brief overview at EWTN:
ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT
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pnewton
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On another note, has anyone else noted how different press outlets used language like: “probably not have,” “unlikely in the near future,” etc.? The Pope did not mince words, yet his absolute tone was not conveyed in most secular headlines.
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simpleas
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Don_Ruggero
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Father, you have chosen to directly address me on this topic, so I will address you directly in reply.
So that we are all on the same page and there can be no allegation of media misrepresentation, here is the story of this commission and how it came to be from Radio Vaticana:
*(Vatican Radio) In the course of a dialogue during a meeting with the participants in the Plenary Assembly of Superiors General, which took place in May, Pope Francis expressed his intention to “establish an official commission that could study the question” of the diaconate of women, “especially with regard to the first ages of the Church.”
After intense prayer and mature reflection, Pope Francis has decided to institute the Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women. As president of the Commission, Pope Francis has appointed Archbishop Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, SJ. In addition to Archbishop Ladaria, the commission is composed of six women and six men from academic institutions around the world.
Below, please find the complete list of the members of the Commission for the Study of the Diaconate of Women:
President:
Abp Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, S.J., Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Members:
Sr. Nuria Calduch‑Benages, M.H.S.F.N., member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission;
Prof. Francesca Cocchini, of the «La Sapienza» University, and of the Patristic Institute “Augustinianum,” Rome;
Msgr. Piero Coda, President of the University Institute «Sophia», Loppiano, and member of the International Theological Commission;
Fr Robert Dodaro, O.S.A., President of the Patristic Institute “Augustinianum,” Rome and professor of patrology;
Fr Santiago Madrigal Terrazas, S.J., professor of ecclesiology at the Pontifical University “Comillas,” Madrid;
Sr Mary Melone, S.F.A., Rector of the Pontifical University “Antonianum,” Rome;
Fr Karl‑Heinz Menke, professor emeritus of dogmatic theology at the University of Bonn and member of the International Theological Commission;
Fr Aimable Musoni, S.D.B., professor of ecclesiology at the Pontifical Salesian University, Rome;
Fr Bernard Pottier, S.J., professor at the “Institut d’Etudes Théologiques,” Brussels, and member of the International Theological Commission;
Prof. Marianne Schlosser, professor of spiritual theology at the University of Vienna, and member of the International Theological Commission;
Prof. Michelina Tenace, professor of fundamental theology at the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome;
Prof. Phyllis Zagano, professor at Hofstra University, Hempstead, New York. *
I receive the news of this papal commission with great joy. And I am grateful for the attentiveness to its composition.
These are theologians at the very pinnacle of the academy, Father, with the addition of an academic who has published extensively in this area.
The list also happily includes the first woman to be rector of a Pontifical Athenaeum…a long overdue nomination for which we give thanks to Almighty God; she is a reminder of how positions at the top of the Church need to be opened to women and the influence of women.
If you think, Father, that theologians of this level are brought together to work on an issue for the amount of time this commission will be at work in order to reach a foregone conclusion – or that this is merely some sort of manipulation, that is not correct. Their mandate is quite real. I have spent a not insignificant amount of time myself on this issue as an academic. Much will, eventually, come down to the discernment of the Pope, who will be guided by the Holy Spirit.
I certainly look forward to seeing the results of this commission.
And I would frankly like to end the exchange with you in this forum on this question because it is abundantly clear to me that we have very different thoughts on what will happen or, apparently from what you write, even what can happen in the future as a result of this papal commission and I don’t think the further discussion of it by us is useful.
Personally, it is my hope that a preliminary report of where the commission is headed can be made to the next synod of bishops so that the synod fathers may weigh in with their counsel to the Holy Father
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The only other thing I will say in that regard is what I have had occasion to say to both priests and non-priests; all decisions of the successor of Peter, the head of the College of Bishops, are to be gratefully received, gladly embraced, and totally complied with.
We pray the Holy Spirit to open every door possible for the commission’s various investigations, to guide their deliberations – and then that He will guide the Magisterium when they will receive the commission’s results.
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JimG
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Yes, it seems that is the key. In the end, it will have to be a question of whether women can be ordained.
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zz912
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Hoosier_Daddy
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It still seems odd to me. For two thousand years the unchangeable truth is that women could not be ordained. Why not say that? Why say, it looks impossible because of something my predecessor said less than 25 years ago?
The simple words it is impossible would suffice.
But I suppose I’m a little too critical. I should be quite pleased that it was answered correctly.
With the way people like to grab on to any little thing to advance an agenda I would think brevity and even a refutation of asking a question this theologically settled would be a better tactic. Or not allowing the question at all.
The simple words it is impossible would suffice.
But I suppose I’m a little too critical. I should be quite pleased that it was answered correctly.
With the way people like to grab on to any little thing to advance an agenda I would think brevity and even a refutation of asking a question this theologically settled would be a better tactic. Or not allowing the question at all.
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pnewton
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There really is a good answer to this. For two thousand years, we did not know that it was unchangable truth, just like for two thousand years, we did not know that Mary was assumed into Heaven, or for two thousand years that Jesus was divine in the womb of Mary. Much of this was believed from the very beginning, but if one wanted to quote why Mary must be the Mother of God, then one goes to the Council of Ephesus. If one wants to say why the Assumption of Mary is dogma, one goes to Pope Pius XII. St. John Paul is the go to guy on the dogma of the all male priesthood. He is the one who defined it as dogma. Sure, it was doctrine (like the other things) long before it was infallibly proclaimed, but if you want to slam the door on this JP the Great is the guy.
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FrDavid96
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It’s just his style (I know I’ve posted this before, maybe in a different thread).
His style is not to be clear and concise.
That’s not a criticism, but a mere observation. I would certainly like it if he were more clear, so would many others, and it seems you also would like more clarity. We’re simply not going to get that. We have to deal with that.
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Convert_in_99
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Yeah a lot of Marian dogma didn’t form until 1800’s or later. Personally if I were God I’d have done it all at once so there’s no confusion between denominations and all, but whadda I know?
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FrDavid96
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The term deaconess first appeared in the 3rd century (at least as far as the surviving texts show, whether or not it was used earlier is a matter of pure speculation). All the surviving church documents (and there are a very few) make the distinction. We’re writing in English: so fine, if we say it in Greek it would be pronounced diaconissa (I won’t try typing the actual Greek letters). It makes no difference. None.
The deaconess was not a deacon, regardless of which language we use. All the ancient texts are in agreement on that point. The specifics surrounding the deaconess varied, of course; but still the fact that deacon and deaconess were 2 completely distinct offices is proven by all the texts.
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irenaeus1
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I would like that Pope Francis be more clear as well. He got upset some months ago when the media took off with the story that women may be ordained as deacons any time now following his statement about forming a commission. I understand that the media can skew anything said, but at least make it more difficult for them to do so. Similar here with regard to the priesthood. I would have liked him to state firmly that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood. It would have been better for him to actually quote JPII rather than simply state that JPII’s statement stands – perhaps something like “the Church has no authority to ordain women to the priesthood.” After all, the media is not going to go and look up what JPII said in 1994. And when someone follows up with “…forever?”, he should have stated emphatically, “Yes.” Rather, he responded with something about “that is the direction.” We may know what he meant, but this just allows the media to go forth thinking, well, that is the direction until the church changes course or JPII’s position stands * until such time we decide to change it*.
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abucs
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I think that militant feminism is a movement that gets more and more discredited as time goes by. We’ve had historical problems with it in the church but it is on its last legs now.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Well pope Francis has a “strong” no. I guess we will have to see what the next pope says…
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Don_Ruggero
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If you read what His Holiness said, you would know the answer.???
What is meant by superiority of women?
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Don_Ruggero
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Actually, no. The question before the papal commission transcends that.
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pnewton
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Romans 16:1
biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/16-1.htm
The word used is transliterated “diakonon”.
Now, one can argue that the word meant something else, or that Paul did not understand that there was also an office of deacon or whatever. But it is clear he used the word that is also used for deacon.
Lest someone point out the danger of us lowly laypeople interpreting the Bible for ourselves, or in this case, just reading what it says, I would like to say that the danger lies equally with those who interpret tradition in a manner contrary to the Holy Father. Life is just full of danger. But in any case, this one piece of evidence exists for the possibility that Pope Francis knows what he is doing.
biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/16-1.htm
The word used is transliterated “diakonon”.
Now, one can argue that the word meant something else, or that Paul did not understand that there was also an office of deacon or whatever. But it is clear he used the word that is also used for deacon.
Lest someone point out the danger of us lowly laypeople interpreting the Bible for ourselves, or in this case, just reading what it says, I would like to say that the danger lies equally with those who interpret tradition in a manner contrary to the Holy Father. Life is just full of danger. But in any case, this one piece of evidence exists for the possibility that Pope Francis knows what he is doing.
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