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AnnArbor
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Oh, I’m not riled. Just making an observation – the most gossipy people I know are men.
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FrDavid96
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And according to the same concordance which you referenced, that word appears 29 times in the New Testament.
Do you claim that the other 28 times that word appears also refers to ordained deacons?
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pnewton
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No, and I know it is not certain that this time does. However, I believe that other than himself, this is the only time Paul uses the term to identify a person by name (maybe Apollos?)
My point is that the feminine noun was not always used. So, do you think the Pope is theologically wrong because he believes female deacons a possibility? Like with the last synod, there are more than one acceptable view, but it is hard to understand how anyone can imagine this is a matter of absolute doctrine, even if he does believe the Pope is wrong.
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FrDavid96
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Pope Francis has never said that he believes female deacons to be possible. He merely said that he would allow study of the issue. There is a difference.
If anything, he has said the opposite. However, I’ll qualify that by saying that when he does speak (especially verbally as opposed to written) he speaks with a definite lack of clarity. Again, I must say, that’s an observation not a criticism. It’s his style.
As I know I’ve posted before, HH Francis has a style of listening to what everyone has to say on a matter (that’s his Jesuit style of leadership). That’s what he is doing now by calling a commission. He is listening. Nothing more. It would be wrong to attribute any further motivation to this.
If (as you claim) he already believes it, then there would be no need for any study. If he has truly made up his mind, he would do it.
In the meantime, since he is not doing it, he has obviously not changed the teaching of the Church.
I don’t see how it’s hard at all. It’s been the constant teaching of the Church. The only question really is should this be in the “doctrine” column or the “dogma” column?
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Wesrock
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It’s really a question of the sacrament of holy orders, correct? It’s my understanding that deacons currently receive this sacrament. Whatever role is determined for deaconesses, I assume it’s settled that they cannot receive the sacrament of holy orders in any degree. Would it be possible that, in the future, the Church not ordain new male deacons with holy orders, do the same with deaconesses (no sacrament), and reserve the sacrament for presbyters and bishops? Or is that settled, and a role for deaconess would have to be distinct from the role of deacon (assuming there’s any change at all, of course. There may not be any)? I suppose that’s what the commission is for…
All speculation from a layperson who knows nothing of canon law, I know…
All speculation from a layperson who knows nothing of canon law, I know…
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FrDavid96
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Restoring the office of deaconess would be rather easy. Just as in the past, they would not be ordained (as we understand that word). They cannot be female deacons, nor can they be unordained deacons.
One question would be “what is the point?” A true restoration of deaconesses would be rather pointless because their role was mostly to assist at times when a male presence was inappropriate or unseemly (like anointing the bodies of females, or visiting females alone in their homes). Maybe in some non-Western cultures, deaconesses would be very appropriate (just speculating)?
The further speculate, there are roles currently reserved to deacons as a matter of discipline which do not require the character of Holy Orders as such. It would be possible for the Church to expand these functions to allow deaconesses to perform them. Such things as proclaiming the Gospel at Mass or liturgical preaching or even witnessing marriages might be possibilities.
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Wesrock
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Thank you, Father. That is very helpful.
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pnewton
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Even if he is determined to procede with some manner of women deacons, there would still be much to consider, including the manner of installation, as well as the roles and limitation of such an office. Even the name would need to be decided, as that might have bearing on the role.
That assumes it the teaching of the Church is that women cannot be deacons. I believe it probably is, but I have never yet, seen where this was defined, even though I have asked and searched for this. It might even be the Pope Francis may have in his mind to define that women cannot be ordained women deacons, as follow-up to his predecessor 1994 statement on priestly ordination.
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JimG
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To me, it would seem somewhat confusing to have two offices, one ordained, one non-ordained, with similar duties and perhaps similar titles. But we will have to see what happens.
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FrDavid96
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Of course it is! The Church teaches (yes, as a matter of doctrine at least) that the sacrament of ordination cannot be conferred on any but a baptised man.
There is nothing to “assume.” It’s a fact.
This is nothing new. It’s been the constant doctrine since the earliest centuries.
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ProdigalSun
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So joking about women being gossips is insulting to Women, but purposefully being insulting to Men makes you thankful?Thank you for this… that post left me shocked and what an insutlt to women…
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ProdigalSun
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Didn’t you read…? The Pope just said No! Women will not be Ordained. That is essentailly the difference of what Fr. David is speaking. Will there be Deaconesses maybe, but who cares? Will there be Women (ordained) Deacons? NO!
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simpleas
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The question of ecclesiology (how we understand the Church) was given fresh emphasis yesterday when Pope Francis announced a commitment to seeking a resolution of the differences between the Catholic and Lutheran Churches. Excellent, one would say — except that commentators have homed in on two points that are going to cause some confusion and much theological heart-searching. Pope Francis reaffirmed the othodox Catholic view that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to priest’s orders, then later talked about working towards a shared Catholic/Lutheran Eucharist. As some Lutheran Churches permit the ordination of women, there is clearly a major difference in the understanding of Holy Orders which will inevitably affect our understanding of other sacraments, including the Eucharist.
SOURCE :
ibenedictines.org/2016/11/03/the-henrician-act-of-supremacy-and-other-matters/
SOURCE :
ibenedictines.org/2016/11/03/the-henrician-act-of-supremacy-and-other-matters/
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simpleas
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churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2016/4-november/news/uk/first-woman-bishop-in-wales-elected
THE next Bishop of St Davids will be the first woman bishop in the Church in Wales. Canon Joanna Penberthy, Rector of Glan Ithon, in the diocese of Swansea & Brecon, was named as the Bishop-elect on Wednesday.
Canon Penberthy, who is 56, and was among the first women to be ordained priest in the Province in 1997, said that she was “immensely humbled and honoured at the trust that has been placed in me”.
THE next Bishop of St Davids will be the first woman bishop in the Church in Wales. Canon Joanna Penberthy, Rector of Glan Ithon, in the diocese of Swansea & Brecon, was named as the Bishop-elect on Wednesday.
Canon Penberthy, who is 56, and was among the first women to be ordained priest in the Province in 1997, said that she was “immensely humbled and honoured at the trust that has been placed in me”.
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fmchan52
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If a woman can become an ordained deacon, what would prevent her from becoming
a priest at a later date if approved by the bishop?
a priest at a later date if approved by the bishop?
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Memaw
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Didn’t Pope Francis say,
“On the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, the final word is clear, it was said by St. John Paul II and this remains,” Pope Francis told journalists Nov. 1.
He did say the “ordination of women” !!! I assume he meant no way at all. AND this remains!!! Give it up those who are holding out for it. Your beating your head against a brick wall !!! God Bless, Memaw
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AnnArbor
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Actually, it wasn’t intended as an insult. It’s just an observation. I don’t consider it problematic, nor do I assume it’s a universal experience.
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pnewton
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Yes. I read it. Did you, or just select quotes? Do you look to the media for theological guidance? I sure don’t the context, according to the article:Didn’t you read…? The Pope just said No! Women will not be Ordained. That is essentailly the difference of what Fr. David is speaking. Will there be Deaconesses maybe, but who cares? Will there be Women (ordained) Deacons? NO!
The question concerning* women priests** in the Catholic Church was asked during the flight back to Rome after the Pope’s Oct. 31-Nov. 1 trip to Sweden to participate in a joint Lutheran-Catholic commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.*
The document referenced by Pope Francis, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis begins, "Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches."
This same document end,* “I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” *
There can be no priestly ordination of women. There is nothing in the article that indicates Pope Francis, or anyone on the flight even mentioned the diaconate, or spoke on the subject of women deacons. The discussion was on women being ordained to the priesthood.
Context is vital in all things, but especially in understanding snippets from an unscripted interview. We do not even know for a fact exactly what the Pope said, or everything that lead up to it. It may well be that the subject of deacons was laid to rest and not reported, or that he clarified he was not speaking of deacons. I mean, how may here have criticized the media whenever they do the exact same thing some are doing here about the Pope and abortion, homosexuality or some other topic that has been misrepresented in the media. Don’t you hate that? Then do not do the same. It is substantial enough that he has reiterated what St. John Paul said, as well as spoke of it as definitive. That is the news story. The deacon stuff will have to wait a few years, though obviously in the meantime, some have their mind set. Such adamant and premature opinions lead to a lot of grousing after the last synod and exhortation. It is far better just to exercise patience, as well as tolerance of legitimate disagreement.
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FrDavid96
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No, the “deacon stuff” will not “have to wait a few years.”
The Church has already decided this.
Do you realize that the Catechism is the official teaching document of the Church?
Do you consider the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be merely “adamant and premature opinions” ??
Catechism of the Catholic Church
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a6.htm
1577 "Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."66 The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.67 The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.68
66 CIC, can. 1024.
67 Cf. Mk 3:14-19; Lk 6:12-16; 1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5-9; St. Clement of Rome, Ad Cor. 42,4; 44,3
G 1,292-293; 300.68 Cf. John Paul II, MD 26-27; CDF, declaration, Inter insigniores: AAS 69 (1977) 98-116.
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ProdigalSun
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Actually you should read what St. JPII wrote about it since Pope Francis referred to him. To be apart of the Deaconate one must be ordained. Since Women can not be ordained they can not be a Deacon. A Deaconess (unordained helper) may be possible but something i consider redundant and confusing for laymen and woman.
Anyway!
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