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ProVobis
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I agree. We’ve been through this before. Need to stay positive.
Pope Francis restricts celebration of EF Mass by Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate
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JReducation
Guest
Why the drama? There is no problem here, at least no problem that has anything to do with the laity. Not belonging to the Franciscans of the Immaculate, I can’t even say that there is a problem within the Franciscans of the Immaculate.
As I read the letter from my confrere above, he is politely asking that the laity not become involved in their internal affairs and that they laity respect the fact that they are pleased with the intervention of the Holy See. It also seems that it was not Pope Francis who single handedly dealt with whatever concerned the friars, but it began under Pope Benedict.
This is going to be very long, but I hope it’s helpful. I’ll try to do by numbers. It may help everyone understand.
As I read the letter from my confrere above, he is politely asking that the laity not become involved in their internal affairs and that they laity respect the fact that they are pleased with the intervention of the Holy See. It also seems that it was not Pope Francis who single handedly dealt with whatever concerned the friars, but it began under Pope Benedict.
This is going to be very long, but I hope it’s helpful. I’ll try to do by numbers. It may help everyone understand.
- Never trust anything that you read in any traditionalist or liberal site, magazine or other media when it concerns the Franciscan family. We have been avoiding both groups for 40 years. They want to use us. We’re very important to them. Together, if you add all of the Franciscan congregations, the Franciscan family surpasses the 1.7 million mark. This was the last census in 2009. It seems that we have grown since then. To have the Franciscans on their side is a coup for either extreme. However, faithful to our Seraphic Father Francis, Franciscans sleep alone. We sleep neither with traditionalists nor liberals. Sure, there are some Franciscans out there who are not well wrapped. Every family has them. For the most part, we are faithful sons of St Francis and St. Clare.
- As far as the TLM is concerned the rule is very simple. SP said that the permission to celebrate it as a conventual mass must come from the major superior. No one argues this. What you guys don’t know is that in the Franciscan tradition the major superior must obey those whom he governs. He can only make up policies and procedures when there are none in place. The chapter decides policies and procedures. The superior must implement them and lead everyone in observing them. This includes the prayer life of the fraternity.
- As I have often said here, in my own community, we only use the EF on special occasions, because it does not match up with the Franciscan calendar. This is a big issue for us. Many Franciscans around the world have expressed frustration at the fact that the Latin Mass community will not tolerate changing the liturgical calendar.
- Like the Franciscans of the Immaculate, the Franciscans of Life look to St. Maximilian Kolbe as our patron along with Saints Francis and Clare. Guess what folks? There is no mass for St. Maximilian Kolbe in the TLM calendar. There is no LOTH for him in the 1962 breviary either. Now we have Bl. John Paul II and Bll. Teresa of Calcutta, both of whom we celebrate. But they’re not on the EF calendar.
- When you have such conflicts, this can trigger debate and frustration within a community. There are men or women who will say that it is more important to honor the memory of our saints and blessed than to observe one form of the mass that does not allow us to do so or to use a breviary that does not include them. I’m not saying this is what happened within the FI. I was not there and it’s none of my business. I’m not about to ask them. I’m giving you an example of what happened in my own community and how this can impact the interior life of a community.
- The first and primary apostolate of any Franciscan community is internal fraternity. Observe, this does not include the lay faithful… Our life as brothers takes priority over any service that we provide to the outside world. Without an intense life of fraternity, where there is love, peace, silence and mutual acceptance, there is no Franciscan apostolate. All you have is an EF mass. Anyone can celebrate an EF mass. To celebrate a mass, EF or OF with a Franciscan spirit requires that one be filled with that spirit and be happy with it.
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JReducation
Guest
- The Rule of St. Francis is very clear. Arguing is not allowed. Questioning is not allowed, unless it’s a chapter, which is a structured situation. If you have a liturgical life that is the focal point of conflict, the easiest thing to do is to go for the norm. The norm is the Ordinary Form. No one can complain about the norm.
- Church law on the order is clear. No religious superior can impose on his brothers that which is extraordinary. It’s not a matter of the friars being obedient to the superior. It’s a matter of the superior being obedient to the friars. If the friars do not want that which is extraordinary, even if it’s just one friar, the superior has no authority to impose it. He must back down. That which is extraordinary must be voted on by the majority of the friars. Even then, it does not become law, until it is reviewed by the proper Church authorities and the Church promulgates it.
- As to the loss to the lay faithful who are attached to the EF, there is a legitimate concern on the part of these good men and women. However, please remember what I have told you so many times. When you welcome a religious community to your parish, unknown to you, the bishop has made a contract with the major superior that you, the parish, will cooperate and embrace the spirituality, work, charism and leadership of the religious community and that you will accept the decisions of the religious superiors that may affect you. Usually these are things like a transfer or a shuffling around of duties. Once in a while it may be something bigger. The only choice that a layman has is to go along or to leave the parish and find another.
- There is also the situation here that no one seems to be saying that the friars cannot celebrate the EF. What seems to be in the works is that the friars must follow the same rules as the rest of the Franciscan family. Normally, most superiors would not deny permission for an EF celebration, unless there is an objection from someone in the house. In that case, he has to protect the unity of the fraternity over the EF. At the end of the day, the EF is just another form of the mass. The community will not go without mass. But a conflict can certainly destroy a community. The superior has to weigh the consequences and if necessary consult the chapter.
- As to private masses with the EF, there is a little problem in Franciscan tradition. We’re not an order of priests, even though 60% of our friars are priests. Unlike the Dominicans, we are a fraternity of religious brothers. The policy written by St. Francis is that there are to be no private masses. There is only one community mass at which everyone participates. This leads us to another issue.
- The EF is very clerical. There is a lot of focus on the priest. In the old Franciscan Missal, before the revision of Paul VI, the focus was on the friars. Everyone was part of the mass. Prayers were said audibly so that everyone could respond. There was no Gregorian chant. There wee hymns that everyone knew. There were parts of the mass that were chanted, but it was so simple that it was almost like a hum. Everyone could do it. The EF mass of 1962 is not quite the same. The lines between the ordained and non ordained are too marked. This may be good for the laity, but disastrous for an order that has always presented itself as a brotherhood of equals. We must pray according to our vocation.
- I have no idea who said what within the FI. As I said, I don’t want to know and neither should you. That’s like me asking you what happens in your bedroom. Not an appropriate question. Even if you have a fight with your spouse and he come to work and bites my head off. I’ll just have to go without a head.
True Franciscan holiness is not about the rite of the mass. True Franciscan holiness is about detachment from all things in order to obey. Instead of creating drama, let us praise and animate the FI for their desire to be faithful to Francis and Clare. Tell all those other people who are writing articles to stuff it and mind their own business.
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JReducation
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**Pope Francis is not against the Usus Antiquior. Francis, however, was a Jesuit, a religious. **
If this is from Fr. Z, even he doesn’t understand religious life. Canon Law is very clear. When a religious id ordained a bishop, he remains a member of his religious community.
The Holy Father himself told reporters on the way home,** “I’m still a Jesuit.”**
One’s fidelity is not suspended because of Holy Orders. Consecrated life and Holy Orders are as different as pizza and beer. They go well together, but they’re not the same thing. Every try to drink beer with pepperoni?
Add secular priests to the list of writers to take with a grain of salt when they speak about religious and religious life. Unless they’re scholars on the subject, they don’t usually understand what we’re about. Let’s face it, we’re a mystery. :yup:
If this is from Fr. Z, even he doesn’t understand religious life. Canon Law is very clear. When a religious id ordained a bishop, he remains a member of his religious community.
The Holy Father himself told reporters on the way home,** “I’m still a Jesuit.”**
One’s fidelity is not suspended because of Holy Orders. Consecrated life and Holy Orders are as different as pizza and beer. They go well together, but they’re not the same thing. Every try to drink beer with pepperoni?
Add secular priests to the list of writers to take with a grain of salt when they speak about religious and religious life. Unless they’re scholars on the subject, they don’t usually understand what we’re about. Let’s face it, we’re a mystery. :yup:
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Santi2
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THANK YOU, BRO JR!!! Once again, we go back to past topics started by you with regards religious communities and the lack of knowledge about them, the latter on which this whole matter turns.
My family and I continue to carry you in prayer.
My family and I continue to carry you in prayer.
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OraLabora
Guest
Ad orientem does not always work in community life actually. Most Benedictine houses that i’ve visited, even the ones doing it all in Latin and Gregorian chant, use versus populum. Ad orientem simply doesn’t work with a community where concelebration can see, like at our Mass on Sunday, 15 priests around the altar. It would look and feel completely ridiculous.
Sorry, never seen a clown Mass in a Benedictine house, and I suspect you won’t see any in Franciscan houses either. But you will, with Benedictines, hear Latin, Gregorian chant and the organ. Maybe not so much polyphony… the tradition is plainchant.
And for Fransicans, Gregorian chant is not part of their tradition so you’re unlikely to hear any there. The Carthusians, on the other hand, you won’t hear the organ. Not since their foundation in the 13th century. Their brand of asceticism doesn’t allow musical instruments.
This thread is about the conventual Mass of the religious, not parish Masses.
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malphono
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It’s off-topic, but I don’t think that’s necessarily true. It depends on the configuration of the sanctuary. IOW, if there’s a free-standing altar, it should work without a hitch. It certainly does for the Byzantines.
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agnes_therese
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Years since entering the Catholic church: 25
Masses attended: 2000+
Clown masses witnessed: 0
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markomalley
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Thank you for your comments on this Bro Jay.One’s fidelity is not suspended because of Holy Orders. Consecrated life and Holy Orders are as different as pizza and beer. They go well together, but they’re not the same thing. Every try to drink beer with pepperoni?
Add secular priests to the list of writers to take with a grain of salt when they speak about religious and religious life. Unless they’re scholars on the subject, they don’t usually understand what we’re about. Let’s face it, we’re a mystery. :yup:
When I first read about this decree in the account by Sandro Magister, two thoughts immediately came to my mind:
- Sandro Magister is Italian. He writes like an Italian (for anybody who doesn’t appreciate what this means, watch a couple of Italian movies…particularly dramas…on Netflix)
- We are talking about a religious order. Obedience is absolutely essential. Fraternity is absolutely essential.
Your series of posts on this subject add a much-needed element of sanity to this discussion.
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pnewton
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It sells. Even when the news is not from a secular source, most of the time the root of a story can be traced back to sensationalism for profit. We used to call this yellow journalism. Now days we just shorten this phrase to “journalism”.
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QuestingKnight
Guest
Some good clarifications from the actual Franciscans in this thread.
So:
- The Major Superior cannot impose that which is Extraordinary on the brothers;
Q: Would that be freely given, if the means to say it were available? I guess that’s up to the internal politics of the individual house.
Q: Can the guardian impose the OF on religious priests who’d rather say the EF?
I guess yes.
So, what’s the problem?
Is it:
Q: That traditionalist laymen fear that the EF will be suppressed in those areas where the FFI are currently saying it?
So:
- The Major Superior cannot impose that which is Extraordinary on the brothers;
- The EF is extraordinary;
- The OF, being the norm, cannot be forbidden.
Q: Would that be freely given, if the means to say it were available? I guess that’s up to the internal politics of the individual house.
Q: Can the guardian impose the OF on religious priests who’d rather say the EF?
I guess yes.
So, what’s the problem?
Is it:
Q: That traditionalist laymen fear that the EF will be suppressed in those areas where the FFI are currently saying it?
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Chopper_Read
Guest
All this downplaying kind of reminds me of that clip of Chief Wiggum:
“Nothing to see here”
youtube.com/watch?v=OVtinv5LSnE
“Nothing to see here”
youtube.com/watch?v=OVtinv5LSnE
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Rich_C
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Thank you for writing this. I for one reacted badly to this news and while I think traditional-minded Catholics everywhere have good reason to be dismayed, I’m personally going to try practicing the virtue of suffering in silence and offering it up as a penance.
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Sirach2
Guest
After reading the rant by Fr. Z and a number of posts on a trad website, I believe the estrangement between our Catholic brothers and sisters is going to increase to the point of outright division and animosity, which isn’t too far from the plate even now.
Jesus prayed with the most earnest entreaty to his Father at the last supper, that ALL may be one. We are not even close. I’m going to follow the lead, since words are usually ineffective to change hearts, and begin to pray more and do penance that “all may be one” in this fruitless battle. A heart united to God in prayer and sacrifice is probably the most effective remedy available to us.
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Debora123
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what’s a clown mass?
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pnewton
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It is an off-topic misdirection used by one group of Catholics to criticize another, in this case, bishops.
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EphelDuath
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There’s three things you need to take from this thread.
- Religious orders work differently than secular parishes. As Br. JR said, the 1962 EF was never really used by the Franciscan Order.
- Pope Francis did not contradict SP. It very clearly regulates how religious orders are to celebrate the EF.
- Lay people should stop peering into the affairs of religious orders and commenting upon them, as if we know really what’s going on.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
It would be extremely interesting in terms of adding plurality to the Western liturgical mix for the Franciscans to request Francis to re-promulgate the Seraphic Missal, which was, for one reason or another, suppressed by Paul VI. In fact that book is the only book he supressed in his whole Pontificate, afaik. I would love to attend Mass in that Rite/Form/Whatever it is. In such a case all this EF stuff would be solved immediately, and I think the concerns of some of the brothers about the “clerical” nature of the EF Roman Rite would also go away.
It pains me to know that the Western liturgical landscape is actually the least pluralized it has ever been. How ironic! Almost all the dioceses have given up their Rites except Milan and, to some extent, Braga. Also, all the religious orders it seems have also given up theirs on a widespread basis except the Carthusians.
I, for one, want to see some of these Rites resurrected. The complete reign of one Form of the Roman Rite over nearly the entire Western Catholic Church is utterly and completely ahistorical, and no that’s not bashing the OF so please don’t say it is.
It pains me to know that the Western liturgical landscape is actually the least pluralized it has ever been. How ironic! Almost all the dioceses have given up their Rites except Milan and, to some extent, Braga. Also, all the religious orders it seems have also given up theirs on a widespread basis except the Carthusians.
I, for one, want to see some of these Rites resurrected. The complete reign of one Form of the Roman Rite over nearly the entire Western Catholic Church is utterly and completely ahistorical, and no that’s not bashing the OF so please don’t say it is.
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Rich_C
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I was just wondering why they didn’t say that liturgy instead of the Roman Missal.
I really like diversity of rites, too.
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Melchior_1
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One of the smartest commentaries I’ve seen on this issue. To me this seems like a perfect compromise, and ties in with Franciscan history.
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