Pope Francis spoke of being 'dazzled' by girl, possible change of celibacy rule

[Slaney]

Marriage may help priest numbers, it won’t solve child abuse since married men abuse children, and it won’t stop Fr Joe running off with Fr Jim’s wife & vice versa, these problems will be solved when sin is no more…come Lord Jesus.

 

[Yerusalyim]

He clearly stated that it is a discipline that can be changed but he didn’t seem to be personally in favor of doing so. Personally, I can see a lot of pit falls. The first would be that it would severely limit our choice of Bishop candidates, since Bishops cannot be married.

Secondly, Our Lord was celebate and I think that matters a lot. Also most of the Apostles and many of the early Fathers were celebate.

I don’t think it would solve the priestly vocation shortage. I imagine the other Rites of the Catholic Church are experiencing the same shortage.

It would not solve the problems of Sexual excess that have arisen. After all, many of us who live in the lay state as single people must be just as celebate as any priest.

Then, if we must admit a married clergy, what then about married religious communities ? See, you can hardly grant the one and deny the other, can you ?

As far as the loneliness and isolation experienced by some of the clergy, I think that can be solved by the simple expedient of requiring the clergy or at least encouraging them to live in common. There would still be a problem in rural and isolated areas but these could be charted as " mission " territory and open only to the most dedicated among the clergy but not forced on anyone. Linus2nd

There are already married religious communities that have married couples. John Michael Talbot belongs to one.

Personally, I think our Orthodox and Eastern Catholic brothers have it correct in ordaining married men. There will still be celebate priests. Our Orthodox brothers do not seem to have a hard time finding Bishops in spite of married priests. I am not convinced the apostles…other than Paul…were celebate. Nor am I convinced that it is a doctrinal matter that Bishops be celebate.

While I favor allowing married men to be ordained as priests I think the church has more important issues to deal with at this time.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I think it would be too much of a headache if they allowed for priests to marry. For one, would the parish have to support the priest’s wife and kids if he had any? What about if the wife works for a company that doesn’t have the same philosophies as the Church? How would that go down?

Further, what about married bishops, Archbishops or Cardinals? A married Pope? There would be a lot of political problems with this. Look how much headache children of heads of state give their parents. What if one the Pope’s kids embarrasses the Pope or supports a cause that’s in conflict with the Church or the Pope’s teachings? What about a Papal annulment or if one of the Cardinals was related to the Pope like a grandchild or great-grandchild?

Too much of a headache I think.

Our Eastern Brothers and the Orthodox don’t seem to have the problems youu bring up. We had at least one married pope…Peter.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Our Eastern Brothers and the Orthodox don’t seem to have the problems youu bring up. We had at least one married pope…Peter.

Marriage ends at the death of one of the participants

 

[TimSpalding]

Maybe so, but a tradition (see Clement of Alexandria’s Stromata 7.11) has Peter’s wife martyred, which would imply he was still married after he became an apostle.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Marriage may help priest numbers, it won’t solve child abuse since married men abuse children, and it won’t stop Fr Joe running off with Fr Jim’s wife & vice versa, these problems will be solved when sin is no more…come Lord Jesus.

It won’t solve child abuse, but might it reduce the problem?

Do married men abuse children more, less, or about as often as single men who have taken a vow of celibacy?

I added the “who have … celibacy” condition, because we are not comparing married priests to single men with active sex lives. At least we hope not.

Alan

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

It won’t solve child abuse, but might it reduce the problem?

Do married men abuse children more, less, or about as often as single men who have taken a vow of celibacy?

I added the “who have … celibacy” condition, because we are not comparing married priests to single men with active sex lives. At least we hope not.

Alan

Children are most often sexually abused by family.

 

[Brendan]

It won’t solve child abuse, but might it reduce the problem?

Probably not. The rate of child abuse by teachers is higher than that of Catholic Clergy, and there is no prohibition on marriage by teachers.

In addition, the vast majority of abuse was same sex abuse, so it would be difficult to see how a heterosexual marriage would reduce homosexual abuse.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Children are most often sexually abused by family.

More often by married men in the family, or by single men in the family?

Probably not. The rate of child abuse by teachers is higher than that of Catholic Clergy, and there is no prohibition on marriage by teachers.

In addition, the vast majority of abuse was same sex abuse, so it would be difficult to see how a heterosexual marriage would reduce homosexual abuse.

You may be right. But the statistician in me has to note that there are fundamental differences between teachers and priests which make it less meaningful to compare. So it may not be a statistically valid comparison.

For example, to even enter the seminary, one has to go through quite a screening process. My son is nearly through it and will likely enter the seminary this fall, so I’ve seen this first hand. He had to fill out extensive questionnaires on his family life during his upbringing. He had to write about various categories of problems he had, academic, social, medical, emotional, and some others. He had to describe his relationship with other kids and his teachers, and specifically identify any types of problems he had. He had to write a detailed autobiography about himself, with many few personal details. He won’t even show me the one he turned in, and we have a very honest an open relationship far beyond most anyone I know. I know for example, that he had to write candidly about what impact my having had severe psychosis has had on him. I get the impression he might have written things he thinks would hurt me. (I still wish he’d show it to me though because I like to know the truth as he sees it. )

There may have been other things he was required to do. I only see him a couple times a week at most so I only saw a part of the process.

And that was just the application process. Then comes the evaluation.

I don’t know what all the evaluation entails, but next month, two priests come to our house (where Matt grew up, not where he lives now) to meet with his parents and siblings. All of this is before they even decide whether he’s going to be accepted.

He cannot pay for the seminary even if he wants to, because they don’t want anybody to feel they are “owed” anything. So they are very picky about whom they invite because it is all subsidized. And if they drop out, they will not owe anything because if they do, then they might stay even if they don’t think they belong, and to avoid them covering up a problem because they are afraid if they quit they will have to pay it back. Plus I suppose if the Church decides he should not continue, it avoids any conflict of interest, in that the authorities do not have to deal with whether their decisions will place a financial burden on him.

Of course, there are all the usual background checks, including VIRTUS-required checks.

With all of these protections in place, I would hope that the clergy has fewer molesters than teachers, who do not undergo this rigorous process to get their jobs.

Alan

 

[LegoGE1947]

More often by married men in the family, or by single men in the family?

You may be right. But the statistician in me has to note that there are fundamental differences between teachers and priests which make it less meaningful to compare. So it may not be a statistically valid comparison.

For example, to even enter the seminary, one has to go through quite a screening process. My son is nearly through it and will likely enter the seminary this fall, so I’ve seen this first hand. He had to fill out extensive questionnaires on his family life during his upbringing. He had to write about various categories of problems he had, academic, social, medical, emotional, and some others. He had to describe his relationship with other kids and his teachers, and specifically identify any types of problems he had. He had to write a detailed autobiography about himself, with many few personal details. He won’t even show me the one he turned in, and we have a very honest an open relationship far beyond most anyone I know. I know for example, that he had to write candidly about what impact my having had severe psychosis has had on him. I get the impression he might have written things he thinks would hurt me. (I still wish he’d show it to me though because I like to know the truth as he sees it. )

There may have been other things he was required to do. I only see him a couple times a week at most so I only saw a part of the process.

And that was just the application process. Then comes the evaluation.

I don’t know what all the evaluation entails, but next month, two priests come to our house (where Matt grew up, not where he lives now) to meet with his parents and siblings. All of this is before they even decide whether he’s going to be accepted.

He cannot pay for the seminary even if he wants to, because they don’t want anybody to feel they are “owed” anything. So they are very picky about whom they invite because it is all subsidized. And if they drop out, they will not owe anything because if they do, then they might stay even if they don’t think they belong, and to avoid them covering up a problem because they are afraid if they quit they will have to pay it back. Plus I suppose if the Church decides he should not continue, it avoids any conflict of interest, in that the authorities do not have to deal with whether their decisions will place a financial burden on him.

Of course, there are all the usual background checks, including VIRTUS-required checks.

With all of these protections in place, I would hope that the clergy has fewer molesters than teachers, who do not undergo this rigorous process to get their jobs.

Alan

In many diocese now days even lay teachers must go through a screening process if they plan to work with kids in Church or a parochial school

 

[AlanFromWichita]

In many diocese now days even lay teachers must go through a screening process if they plan to work with kids in Church or a parochial school

Certainly there is a screening process. It includes VIRTUS checks, which IMO are kind of lame.

But is it nearly as extensive as this? And what about teachers not in Catholic schools? Brendan didn’t specify that they were Catholic teachers.

Either way I assert that comparing molestation rates of “teachers” and “priests” says anything about celibacy. That was my real point. Perhaps there is more information the poster could offer from the source of the statement about teachers molesting more than priests. For one, are we talking 3% or 50% higher rate among teachers than priests? What about single teachers that are not sexually active – do we even have statistics on that? How would we even identify them? What about the fact that priests are much more public and visible?

There are too many significant variables to conclude that celibacy even factors in, so we can’t say that removing the celibacy requirement would not help the abuse problem, on the basis that teachers molest more often than priests. That’s really the point I’m making. All the rest were just supporting details.

Alan

 

[Slaney]

It won’t solve child abuse, but might it reduce the problem?

Do married men abuse children more, less, or about as often as single men who have taken a vow of celibacy?

I added the “who have … celibacy” condition, because we are not comparing married priests to single men with active sex lives. At least we hope not.

Alan

Don’t think there is a one size fits all scenario, I personally know of single men who have abused their younger brothers and sisters, and those same people have went on to get married and abuse their off-spring sadly.

Marriage cured nothing in these men…

Anyone the thread is about Pope Francis being dazzled by the beauty of a girl, haven’t we all

 

[LegoGE1947]

Don’t think there is a one size fits all scenario, I personally know of single men who have abused their younger brothers and sisters, and those same people have went on to get married and abuse their off-spring sadly.

Marriage cured nothing in these men…

Anyone the thread is about Pope Francis being dazzled by the beauty of a girl, haven’t we all

Anyone who hasn’t been dazzled by a beautiful girl should check their pulse! I’m even dazzled by the beauty of a little 3 year old girl named Cecilia (granddaughter).

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Anyone who hasn’t been dazzled by a beautiful girl should check their pulse! I’m even dazzled by the beauty of a little 3 year old girl named Cecilia (granddaughter).

I tried to check my pulse, there wasn’t one and my heart is also stone cold.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I tried to check my pulse, there wasn’t one and my heart is also stone cold.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[Slaney]

:bible1:

Anyone who hasn’t been dazzled by a beautiful girl should check their pulse! I’m even dazzled by the beauty of a little 3 year old girl named Cecilia (granddaughter).

 

[Slaney]

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[Slaney]

I tried to check my pulse, there wasn’t one and my heart is also stone cold.

Why do you say that ? it sounds very chilling !

 

[LegoGE1947]

Why do you say that ? it sounds very chilling !

It was a response to one of my posts about “if you are not dazzled by a pretty girl you better check your pulse” I went on to say there is one pretty girl I’m “dazzled” by–a 3 year old granddaughter named Cecilia! (See post #73)

 

[Slaney]

It was a response to one of my posts about “if you are not dazzled by a pretty girl you better check your pulse” I went on to say there is one pretty girl I’m “dazzled” by–a 3 year old granddaughter named Cecilia! (See post #73)

Ok will do …