Pope Francis surprised by misunderstanding of his words on family
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M
McCall1981
Guest
Well, thats interesting to read.
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
be vs. breed? Hmmmm. Maybe the Pope should just smile and wave and stop giving interviews until he can be quoted correctly!
F
Faxero
Guest
Seriously? The pope doesn’t need to apologize for voicing basic truths. Too many people take advantage of his meekness to belittle him.
In a good Catholic marriage, the couple must be open to life. Being open to life does not equate to birthing 2+ kids.
The pope didn’t have to apologize. Shame on those fools who misrepresent his words, slandering him.
In a good Catholic marriage, the couple must be open to life. Being open to life does not equate to birthing 2+ kids.
The pope didn’t have to apologize. Shame on those fools who misrepresent his words, slandering him.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
I didn’t.
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SWolf
Guest
Agreed.
But it’s also Church teaching that even using NFP is only valid when there is a strong physiological, psychological, or external reason.
And publicly attacking a woman’s choice of having an eighth child was very imprudent.
J
Justin_Swanton
Guest
Whenever I read something like this I always wonder how what the media would have made of Christ if he had spoken for the first time in 2015 rather than in 30.
This for example:
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” - Mt. 10:34
One can visualise the headlines:
FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY PROMOTES CIVIL WAR
AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FAMILY
Pope Francis is really very tame in comparison.
But there *is *that Communion issue…
This for example:
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” - Mt. 10:34
One can visualise the headlines:
FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY PROMOTES CIVIL WAR
AND THE DESTRUCTION OF THE FAMILY
Pope Francis is really very tame in comparison.
But there *is *that Communion issue…
D
Darryl1958
Guest
What does it mean to ‘be like a rabbit’?
What is the proper context to put that phrase in, given that the topic discussed at the time was a woman having her eighth child?
What is the proper context to put that phrase in, given that the topic discussed at the time was a woman having her eighth child?
B
buffalo
Guest
L
LongingSoul
Guest
A number of times during his pontificate so far the Pope has referenced ‘ideologues’ and ideologies which claim to have doctrinal weight but don’t. That sort of thing. One of those is the ideology that Catholic couples should not limit their family size but should keep reproducing for the term of their fertile life barring some extreme reasons.
When he referenced the women expecting her eighth child he said that she had said ‘I trust in God.’ … which I take it was meaning that this woman was espousing that ideology regardless of the fact that she couldn’t have natural births and was putting her children at risk of being orphaned because of it. So he is addressing what is a false belief about what a parents responsibility entails.
Following the Church’s teachings did not mean “Christians should have children one after the other”, he said.
So he was not attacking large families and esteeming small families per se… he was pointedly addressing a false ideology that some have about a Catholics duties to reproduce.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Pope was surprised at a misunderstanding of his words? Has he been on vacation for almost two years!?
K
KSU
Guest
Is Pope Francis kept in the dark about the initial shock and hurt his off the cuff remarks have caused for even authentic Catholics, or the near-delirious joy such remarks have caused in the anti-Catholic world? It’s beyond discouraging.
Last December, Francis was asked to be more clear about some things. In reply, sounding surprised, he said, "Look, I wrote an encyclical…and an Apostolic Exhortation, I’m permanently making statements, giving homilies; that’s teaching. That’s what I think, not what the media say that I think. Check it out, it’s very clear. Evangelii Gaudium is very clear’”.
Reacting to those words, in another thread I posted this:
QUOTE Good people, on this thread, if God granted me just 15 minutes alone with this compassionate, erudite, great man of God, who teaches me something new every few days, the first thing I would say to him is this:
Holy Father, you obviously are close to both the common man and to the mind of God. You probably will end up being the greatest teaching pope in our lifetime. But, please, please stop assuming that what you tell us is “very clear.” We English-speaking people, because of translation problems, can’t “check it out”; we never know for sure exactly what you said. The English version of Evangelii Gaudium, for example, has been so poorly–actually incompetently–translated by the Vatican, that we still don’t know what you meant. Can you believe that? As just one example, in section 54, the words we were given in English makes you appear to be what you are not; a Marxist railing specifically against the economic system of the United States. Who hears you say later that you are not a Marxist?
The damage has been done, Holy Father. Secular enemies of both the Church in America and the [anti-Socialists] in the U.S. were able to lead many astray; the Devil knows that those two entities have a symbiotic relationship. The marginal destruction of one would lead to the marginal destruction of the other.
Similarly, reports we were given in English after the recent Synod [on the family], and your later related comments to the media, were somewhat better translated (especially the translation done by LA NACION), but not to the point you yourself would find suitable, and context suffered. Again, many common people were led astray about who you are.
That is a disaster. Holy Father, in this age of instant communication, please resist the temptation to say [as many prelates do] that “The Church thinks in terms of centuries”. Do you not wonder why you are getting so many strange reactions after your “clear” statements? They are no longer clear by the time [with a big smile] your poor English-speaking lambs read them. Please add the desperately needed reform of the Vatican Press Office–as a priority–to the reform of the Curia. The latter does less immediate damage to the Faith than the English translations.
Thank you, Holy Father. END QUOTE
Post #133 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12563384#post12563384
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LongingSoul
Guest
The thing is that you can’t speak for all English people. You can speak for yourself and perhaps the others in the US who seem to be of the same mind in this, but not for all English speakers. The rest of the world here does not find him that confusing. He’s sure different and seems to be freer than any other Pope to speak off the cuff but the type of things he is saying and problems he has in his sights… are things many of us as Catholics have sensed before this.
I think the Church will be very different after the end of this pontificate. As Pope St John XXIII said, it’s as though the windows of the Vatican have finally been thrown open.
The majority from what I have observed at a global level, are excited and filled with anticipation of Catholic and personal renewal.
I think the Church will be very different after the end of this pontificate. As Pope St John XXIII said, it’s as though the windows of the Vatican have finally been thrown open.
The majority from what I have observed at a global level, are excited and filled with anticipation of Catholic and personal renewal.
K
KSU
Guest
Thank you for making my case. The strongly traditional St John XXIII, who wanted to open windows only to let much-needed sunlight enter the Church (especially in Europe), would have been the very first to agree with Paul VI’s remark concerning the chaos rampaging through the post-concilar Church: “From some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God.”
Cardinal Noe, the former papal Master of Ceremonies under Paul VI, said the Pope made that remark in reference to " priests, bishops and cardinals …badly celebrating Holy Mass through an erroneous interpretation and application of the Second Vatican Council."
After VCII, during the anti-Council reign of “The Spirit of Vatican Council Two”, dissidents were able to easily misinterpret the all-important, Holy Spirit-influenced documents of VCII. Enter all the unauthorized, catastrophic changes to our liturgy, music, architecture and education. That was possible because, like some U.S. statutes, VCII documents were written in the less than clear language of compromise so that many interpretations would be possible. See, for example, catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=22904.
Also see catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=23061.
In short, good Pope Francis must be informed, and soon, how his less than clear, off the cuff remarks are vulnerable to anti-Catholic, damaging misinterpretations. If less than clear documents of the Church itself are capable of nefarious interpretation, how much more so the off the cuff remarks of the Pope?
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Darryl1958
Guest
Okay.
I don’t see how it is an innaccurate translation then to quote him as saying breeding like rabbits, since that is indeed the aspect of rabbithood that he is referring to.
Of course, for a woman who has already had seven children, chances are that just having sex for her is going to mean that an eighth is going to be on the way. Some couples just don’t have the insight and the presence of mind to practice NFP properly.
It takes a certain amount of intelligence and effort to master the science and the bodily awareness.
Or maybe the lady was just an ideologue too, I guess.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Well, I think a couple things are at play here. 1, the rampant C sections in south american countries. This honestly could be the governments way of controlling the population down there.
And honestly someone needs to track down the woman, and interview her. I would give a lot of money to hear her say "Didn’t the Pope say “who am I to judge” The fact is that the media is running circles around our faith and we are slow to respond. This is not new with this Pope, this is just the first time in a long time that the Pope has been used in a puppet like way. With the previous pontificates it was easier to demonize the message. With this one it is flat out distortion.
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Darryl1958
Guest
I did a quick search on Argentina;s fertility rate, and it is a little above America’s at 2.25.
That is just above natural replacement rates, and is something that we could only wish on the Catholic countries of the Catholic countries of Europe.
There are medical issues with cesarean, and maybe South Americans have developed unwise practices in this regard, much as was the case with North America in past decades.
Being like rabbits does not seem to be a huge problem in Catholic countries any more though
Maybe the pope noticed a little fatalism in the lady’s voice, the learned helplessness of a good Catholic caught between a rock and a hard place. NFP leaves her open to life for sure, but in her case, also very much open to death.
The pope’s advice to her, given the context of Catholic teaching, seems to reflect this ambiguity.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Wait, what!?
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Darryl1958
Guest
That is just echoing what the pope told her, something about leaving her other seven kids orphans.
A
ARSpade
Guest
Not really, no. Because the Pope would’ve told her to either practice NFP (which isn’t nearly as hard as you seem to think it is) or (zomg earthshattering thing here) not have sex.
So your stance that NFP leave her “open to death” is incorrect. Except, of course, that life itself leaves us open to death.
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