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Megan7
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Thanks.Isn’t the complete fall of Russian Communism just a couple of years after JPII the Great’s consecration without firing a shot enough proof? Am I missing something?
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Basilios
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If we’'re going to play that kind of game, then the whole thing starts to crumble. Nobody has ever doubted that what they passed on from Our Lady. I suspect that if Our Lady appears to people to give them a prophetic warning in one of the most important apparitions in the history of the world that Heaven wouldn’t let the kids make a mistake in reporting back to others what Our Lady said!
When your dad used to say to you, “Please do your homework” was that a request or a demand? It was a request and a demand by virtue of his authority and power over you.
I speak for myself here: but if Our Lady appeared to me asking me to do something, I wouldn’t think twice about it simply because she didn’t explicitly say “Don’t worry Basilios, this isn’t exactly a demand or anything”. I would say “My goodness, Our Lady and Heaven is asking for something! I better do it quickly!”
When it comes to Our Lady, and Heavenly messages, we simply cannot treat them as if they are mere requests. Not in something so important. If the language isn’t explicitly commanding, it takes on the force of being commanding by virtue of the message and the message giver.
We don’t bind God… but that’s not what is going on here. Rather, Heaven asked us to do something and said what would happen if we did or didn’t do it. That’s not about binding God. That’s about God being merciful enough to reveal to us what will happen in either situation. He made it easy for us.
The perspective is that nearly 100 years later, 3 attempted consecrations, and the last Pope said that the prophetic message of Fatima wasn’t finished. That’s the perspective of the Church at the moment. IF the Church has declared Fatima worthy of belief, why withhold? You’re not bound by sin of course, but Our Lady didn’t ask for anything radical, and the Church says not only that we can believe it if we want but it is worthy to believe it.
Notice something here. You claim that Fatima is in any case only private revelation not binding. But yet (so you say) we must be bound to believe that the request of Our Lady has been fulfilled. In other words, we are bound to believe something about something that is in itself not binding. That doesn’t make sense. If, as you say, Fatima is only a pious kind of thing to believe in without any moral binding force, then we are just as entitled to believe that the consecration hasn’t been done - since what the revelation of Fatima presents is not a matter of faith and morals, and since the act of the consecration is in itself not remotely connected with the magisterial authority of the pope, we may legitimately wonder if in fact the consecration has been done.
Pope Pius XII tried to do it. Bl. JPII tried to do it… twice. Something cannot be right here. It is a simple fact that there is something irreconcilable between the simple request that the Pope in union with all the Bishops consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart, and the fact that never has this request been fulfilled. We’ve had a consecration of Russia by PP Pius XII without the Bishops. We’ve had a consecration of the world. With some Bishops. But never as Our Lady requested.
Again, I don’t discount that there may be something more to it than what I know. It probably has to do with the second part of the third secret. Who knows.
No, it’s not. Our Lady promised a time of world peace - still haven’t got that. She promised conversion of Russia - still haven’t got that. There was and is no peace, unless one thinks Our Lady was referring only to a specific geographic location (she never mentioned that her plan for peace was confined to a few countries) or some small amount of time (didn’t mention that either). There is no conversion of Russia. They’re neck-deep in moral sin in that country,and less than 1% of the population are Catholic.
Well, may I be wrong. Please God I am wrong, because I fear the wrath of Heaven. I fear not doing what Our Lady asked. But we can go around and around. God bless us all.
Saviour of the world, save Russia! +
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LilyM
Guest
Yes RUSSIA was consecrated along with every other blessed country of the world. I really don’t see the problem unless you happen to believe that Russia is somehow not of this world (perhaps you really imagine it to be on a separate planet or something?
)You are ignoring a few other critical points:
a) Our Lady seems to have been flexible with her demands, as her addition of other countries in later messages to Sr Lucia indicates. Why no stink about Spain et al being specifically mentioned? Why the contrasting insistence that Russia must be?
b) JP2 had an unparalleled, second-to-none devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, even crediting her with saving his life when he was shot. He of all people would be careful in the extreme to make sure that the consecration was done in a way pleasing to her. And he had numerous meetings with Sr Lucia, and so ample opportunity to make sure she knew and approved of what he had done. It strains credulity to breaking point to think that in all the years of his pontificate and following these numerous meetings that he neither did correctly the first time nor bothered to correct his mistake later.
c) this one bears emphasising. Private revelations are IN NO WAY binding on ANYONE except the seers and them alone. Our Lady can make all the requests she likes but the Pope is not bound by them unless she appears directly to him. Consecration or no consecration, there is no sin nor negligence on the Pope’s part in not doing what Our lady has requested through Sr Lucia.
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Basilios
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Russia was not the sole object of the consecration. It’s like asking for your best friend to visit you and he shows up in a crowd of 200 people. Technically I guess he visited, but…Yes RUSSIA was consecrated along with every other blessed country of the world. I really don’t see the problem unless you happen to believe that Russia is somehow not of this world (perhaps you really imagine it to be on a separate planet or something?
It’s what she asked for.
Sr Lucy wasn’t Our Lady, so her approval isn’t exactly the weightiest authority. The approval comes from Heaven in fulfilling the promises of Our Lady. As for Bl. JPII’s devotion to Fatima, I can’t say either way how deep it was since I don’t know. Nor can I say either way why or why he didn’t consecrate Russia despite having the devotion. As I have said before, it may have something to do with the second part of the third secret.
Who said he sinned?
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pnewton
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Well, on one hand we have a serious of popes who walk in the Shoes of the Fisherman, who say this consecration has happend, along with Sister Lucia. On the other hand we have Fr. Gruner. Here is more on him.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner.htm
ewtn.com/expert/answers/fr_gruner.htm
I guess each can decide what the consider to be the voice of the Church on this matter. Fortunately, Fatima is not a matter of faith and morals so one can also choose to ignore the issue of the consecration.
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LilyM
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You’re comparing consecrating additional countries to the Immaculate Heart along with Russia to bringing uninvited guests to a party? Why? Do you think Our Lord and Our Lady specifically do NOT want some countries consecrated to her Immaculate Heart? That would be the only possible reason for preferring the consecration of Russia to the consecration of the whole world including Russia, and it frankly sounds preposterous that heaven would be anything other than pleased by the addition of other countries.
It sure sounds like she asked for Spain and a few other countries as well, in the later message.
The request came through Sister Lucy though, not direct from heaven to JP2. Since we only have Sister Lucy’s word for it that Our Lady wanted Russia consecrated in the first place, then we can only go by her approval or lack thereof when ascertaining whether it was done properly or not.
Who said there is a second part of the Third Secret? Not Sr Lucy, and not the Vatican
Well, since his neglect is so clearly responsible for the fact that Russia wasn’t 100% Catholic as of the day after his consecration, and the world not instantly in a perpetual peace mas of that same date, then according to the Fatima conspiracy brigade he is responsible for the sins of the whole nation - in fact the wartime sins of the whole world - ever since. Which is surely a sin in itself.
Never mind that Our Lady never promised that Russia would become Catholic at all, let alone that said conversion or the promised peace would happen within a year, or thirty, or three thousand.
I mean Christ promised to return ‘soon’ over 1900 years ago and we’re still waiting …
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GWright
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Hi there
Yes - the source is the link to the video interview with Fr Gruner in the original post. Here it is again:
suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=1626.0
From the link: (the person who posted the video in the link is of the opinion that the consecration has not been done properly).
The video is also embedded in the linked page, so you don’t actually need to visit youtube.
Around the 10 minute mark of the video, when they are discussing the election of Pope Francis, Fr Gruner mentions the fact that when ++Bergoglio was made a Cardinal, he took the Titular Church of St Robert Bellarmine - whose feast day is May 13th, which is also the date of the first Fatima apparition.
(This fact (about taking the title of St Robert Bellarmine) is verifiable:
news.va/en/news/biography-who-is-jorge-mario-bergoglio)
Fr Gruner then goes on to say that his Fatima apostolate previously received a letter from the now Pope , to inform them about various parishes named after Our Lady of Fatima in his own dioceses. The interviewer presses Gruner to restate that he received a letter from ++Bergolgio in person and he replies “Yes, more than one”.
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GWright
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Hi Lormar,
Apologies to you and anyone else who might have thought this thread was to challenge what the Church has said, or anything like that.
I genuinely was not aware of any dispute regarding this, nor of the info about Fr Gruner which another poster has given above. I posted in good faith, thinking Pope Francis’ move regarding his Pontificate was good news.
In my experience, the only people who ever talk about or mention Fatima are of the opinion that the consecration hasn’t been done, so the impression I formed was that this was the general view.
There a great many websites, interviews, books etc available which take the “still outstanding” view but I am not aware of a similar bulk of material claiming the contrary (though indeed some liks and things have been provided here by others).
The people (again in my experience) who are of the outstanding view also seem to be largely “traditionalists” and I do tend to sympathise with their views in general, more than I do post-conciliar type views.
I suppose it is a sign of the disarray of the modern Church that we cannot seem to state clearly / agree on whether or not we have done something.
If the official views it that this is all done and dusted, then the faithful should be made resoundingly and clearly aware that the many people who say otherwise are frauds, with information given as to why they are wrong.
The Church obviously cannot control what people do or say, or what they write or state in interviews, but they can make it very clear that people have no credibility, meaning their influence is much diminished.
So apologies again if this seemed like an effort to stir up a controversy or promote dissent (nothing could be further from the truth!).
Cheers
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vames
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Hi, Simple Soul - you can follow the link on my post:Hi Vames, I was wondering if I could bother you and if you would be so kind, with supplying a picture or icon of this image of the Theotokos. Please and thank you
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_the_Theotokos
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vames
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In those times (1917… before the 1960s), the Orthodox Church was regarded as heretical, along with Protestants. Now the Catholic Church sees the Orthodox simply as Christian brothers. So can we honestly attribute to the Virgin Mary the intention to hate and destroy the Orthodox Church? The only Christian Church where the Virgin Mary enjoys the same kind of hyperdulia as in Catholicism? Think about it.
And it’s wrong to blame the Orthodox for the apparition of Protestantism. People (the members of human race) were, are and will be different and this fact will always determine the diversity of cultures, civilizations, customs, religions: to have an entire country, continent, planet adopting one religion and sticking with it for ever is impossible. That’s why, even before the Orthodox schism, there were so many heresies and that’s why there were and are so many old and new religions and cults in the world.
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Tigg
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The Vatican has said Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions, so yes, it is highly relevant to today’s world. It is a sad thing that something so important as the actual consecration of Russia continues to be questioned, but I do personally question whether it has been fulfilled simply because of the state of the world today. Our Lady requested prayer, penance and devotion to her Immaculate Heart and if men did not heed her message Russia would rise and spread her errors throughout the world. Look at our own country whose Constitution is so threatened by socialist overtones and the religious persecution of Catholics by the current administration. Socialism is but a close cousin to communism and currently all manner of atheistic philosophy is being propagated. Instead of becoming a more prayerful world, we are rejecting God and apostasy is rampant.
Another thing to consider is that Our Lady of Akita, (l973-1981 church approved apparition) has often been spoken of as the “Second Fatima.” The warnings and prophecies coming from it are even more grim than Fatima. The most interesting thing to me is that one prophecy stated that we would see bishop against bishop and no one can deny that is not happening at this current time. With the heresy in the church today, it is not reasonable to me that we have truly fulfilled our Mother’s wishes.
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simple_soul
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Thank you again. Just one more question. Is this image of the Theotokos ever written with just her?
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simple_soul
Guest
I know and understand and am not disagreeing or trying to say anything against this. I apologize of I am coming across this way.
I don’t see it as her intention of trying to cause hate and destroy the Orthodox Church but as working to help them become reunited with the Pope and trying to keep other united to the Pope also. How this is done or accomplished is in the Pope’s and their hands.
I am not blaming others for ones own sinfulness. But I do know that we all suffer from not only our own individual sins but we also suffer the effects from the sins of others in one way or another.
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vames
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Sorry, I don’t understand the question
Do you mean an icon where she is represented alone?
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agnes_therese
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I don’t think there are many of us who would disagree that this is good news. It’s unfortunate, but often any mention of Fatima here degenerates into another “yes it was/no it wasn’t” argument over the consecration.
Nonetheless, I thank you for posting – your link was the first time I saw the news.
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simple_soul
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Yes.Sorry, I don’t understand the question
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Bookcat
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Bookcat
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Bookcat
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Cardinal Bertone notes in the book with the preface by Pope Benedict XVI: “Any debate about the validity of the Act of Entrustment, or agitation for further acts of consecration, has no leg to stand on.”
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MidnightSun12
Guest
Well we’re seeing some interesting things happening in Russia right now with the Orthodox Church. The political power that the orthodox church in Russia is enjoying now is similar to what we saw in the early 20th century in North America. All it would take is for that Orthodox Church to re-unify with Rome and we instantly transform Russia into a strong Catholic country (probably the strongest Catholic country in the world today).
It’s just my opinion, but if Sr. Lucia says that Russia has been consecrated, that seems like a pretty conclusive statement on the matter. But, like another poster said, that doesn’t guarantee that Russia will be immediately converted. Don’t forget that our Lady asked for the consecration of our own lives to her immaculate heart also… Maybe not enough people are praying the rosary for Russia to be converted, yet. Maybe it will finally happen under Pope Francis’ pontificate.
Either way, let’s pray that Russia is converted soon.
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