Pope Francis wants Church to be poor, and for the poor

[LilyM]

Actually, this part of the argument was about Cardinals taking taxis.

And the significance and value of their doing so.

IMHO, it is wrong to expect our Cardinals or our Pope to behave as if they were living in 1st Century Jerusalem. That’s not what makes a clergyman Christ-like.

Quite beside the point - I was speaking of the impression of dignity and authority created on Palm Sunday vs the impression of humble service crated by His washing their feet at the Last Supper. Nothinh to do with behaving literally as He did.

How many Palm Sundays did Christ have? And how many moments of humble and quiet service by contrast?

I don’t really see any “substance” in an Italian cab ride that is significant for a Cardinal. Does a cab provide the substantive element of dignity, authority or power? Maybe I am just missing it but I don’t see that. This is a false dichotomy.

A cab ride provides the substantive element of humility.

It speaks a message of ‘I do not consider myself or these (mostly bureaucratic and administrative rather than spiritual) tasks that I am doing so very important that a driver and car need to be at my beck and call 24 hours a day to cater to my convenience.’

And where a limousine was previously used, the message is even louder and clearer as the contrast between the luxury of a limousine and the utilitarian nature of a taxi is greater.

Yes, sometimes a cab may end up being a false economy. What is wrong with a humbler hirecar rather than a limo? Or with someone driving themselves if possible rather than having someone do it for them?

 

[jwinch2]

Excellent blog by a wonderful Dominican Priest

I loved the above line as well, and I agree
Thanks for sharing this with us.
God bless.

You are welcome Megan.

We have to be careful of creating false dichotomies. Our first and most important mission is the salvation of souls. We can never forget that works of mercy do not only include the corporal works. Though they are undeniably important, the spiritual works are every bit as important.

As I noted above, the Church needs all charisms, not just St. Francis’. St. Francis is wonderful, but he is not the Church.

 

[Corki]

Yes, sometimes a cab may end up being a false economy. What is wrong with a humbler hirecar rather than a limo? Or with someone driving themselves if possible rather than having someone do it for them?

Going to the level of complete ridiculousness.

A limo IS a hirecar. The story linked said sedans. A limo is simply a car for hire. No one said they were ridiing around in stretch Hummers.

And there is definately something wrong with people believing it is in anyway *better *for 70 and 80 year old men, not native to the city of Rome to drive themselves around just so that the wags don’t “tut tut” about their use of a car and driver.

 

[LilyM]

Going to the level of complete ridiculousness.

A limo IS a hirecar. The story linked said sedans. A limo is simply a car for hire. No one said they were ridiing around in stretch Hummers.

And there is definately something wrong with people believing it is in anyway *better *for 70 and 80 year old men, not native to the city of Rome to drive themselves around just so that the wags don’t “tut tut” about their use of a car and driver.

'Limousine

N. 1. A large luxurious automobile, esp. one driven by a chauffeur who is separated from
the passengers by a partition’
2. A passenger vehicle carrying people to and from an airport’

source: google.com.au/search?q=limousine+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

The cardinals sure ain’t going just to and from the airport, and I doubt that the original proposal was to ferry them around in tiny little beat-up Fiats either.

Yes, I am well aware that some may by reason of age or unfamiliarity or the like not be suitable to drive themselves, which is precisely why I said ‘where possible’ - duh.

ETA: interesting. According to this: oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/limousine
your definition of limousine would seem to be a North American thing. May explain the confusion. I’m not American.

 

[Corki]

ETA: interesting. According to this: oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/limousine
your definition of limousine would seem to be a North American thing. May explain the confusion. I’m not American.

LOL I always forget those cultural differences.

The last “limo” I took was a Chevy Suburban. Big, yes, but luxurious, hardly!

The most popular car for limos in the US is a Lincoln Town Car. It’s essentially the same car as a Ford Crown Victoria which, until recently, was one of the most popular cars for taxis (and police cars).

I’m fine if a Cardinal wants to squeeze himself into a Fiat to get around town. What bothers me is this attitude creeping in that somehow that’s the right thing to do or that we should “demand” Cardinals to get around that way when in Rome. That kind of attitude is very dangerous, IMO, since it attempts to strip the Cardinals of dignity and deference.

There are lots of people who are angry or, at least, mildly dissatisfied with the Church and they seem to be taking perverse pleasure in, what is being portrayed as, the taking down of the Cardinals. One poster mentioned “comeuppance”. For a Catholic layperson to state that a Prince of the Church should get a “comeuppance” for no other reason than he is a Cardinal, is very wrong. Yes, some Cardinals and other clergy did not live up to their responsibilities. But rather than trying to “take down” the members of the hierarchy, we should be demanding that they all behave in a manner deserving of that resect, dignity and deference.

 

[CMatt25]

As a mainline to liberal Christian I’ve been impressed so far with your new Pope Francis. So far he is my favorite Pope since John23. I saw someone on EWTN who personally knows him, I believe a priest, say he expects Francis’s papacy to be similar to John23’s. I’ve been impressed by his humility. And with his words about not condemning. Sharing the example of how no one cast stones at the woman who committed adultery. And that Jesus did not condemn her but just told her to sin no more. However then the Pope added, of course in about a month or so people sin again. Yet Jesus remains always merciful.

I’ve been impressed by him placing such emphasis on the poor. Today in his homily he spoke of the poor being the most important to protect. And evoked the Gospel’s social justice words spoken by Christ in Matt 25 concerning the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty. He also spoke of protecting the environment. Someone on EWTN said he might be described as the first “green” Pope. And I believe if what he meant by wanting the Church to be poorer, is that he wants less wealth held and spent on pomp and circumstance and so forth, and instead even more money spent towards helping even more of the poor, I would agree.

 

[fix]

As a mainline to liberal Christian I’ve been impressed so far with your new Pope Francis. So far he is my favorite Pope since John23.

Great I hope you still hold that view when he defends the rights of children.

 

[jwinch2]

Great I hope you still hold that view when he defends the rights of children.

Not to mention marriage, religious liberty, etc.

 

[Tobias22]

As a mainline to liberal Christian I’ve been impressed so far with your new Pope Francis. So far he is my favorite Pope since John23. I saw someone on EWTN who personally knows him, I believe a priest, say he expects Francis’s papacy to be similar to John23’s. I’ve been impressed by his humility. And with his words about not condemning. Sharing the example of how no one cast stones at the woman who committed adultery. And that Jesus did not condemn her but just told her to sin no more. However then the Pope added, of course in about a month or so people sin again. Yet Jesus remains always merciful.

I’ve been impressed by him placing such emphasis on the poor. Today in his homily he spoke of the poor being the most important to protect. And evoked the Gospel’s social justice words spoken by Christ in Matt 25 concerning the homeless, the hungry, the thirsty. He also spoke of protecting the environment. Someone on EWTN said he might be described as the first “green” Pope. And I believe if what he meant by wanting the Church to be poorer, is that he wants less wealth held and spent on pomp and circumstance and so forth, and instead even more money spent towards helping even more of the poor, I would agree.

There is a progressive Episcopal parish nearby and so fat they are enthusiastic. Funny EWTN called him the first green Pope. That is what one of the members of that church said too. Plus his progressive stance on economic justice and criticism of elements of capitalism.

One EWTN host asked about how the Pope will pose challenges to Republican Catholics.

I listen to some Protestant radio. Very conservative and they are not so happy with the Pope for the very same reasons. They seem to think Jeus was a capitalist which he wasn’t.

Hopefully the mainline churches can work more closely with the Catholic church on these issues.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

As a mainline to liberal Christian I’ve been impressed so far with your new Pope Francis. .

I, for one, am thrilled. I was so worried that you wouldn’t like him.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

One EWTN host asked about how the Pope will pose challenges to Republican Catholics.

.

I am a Republican conservative Catholic in the Burkean tradition. I have no love for soulless capitalism (aka corporate capitalism). I have no problem at all with anything that the Holy Father is saying. What he is saying is the teaching of the Church, after all. I am listening with complete respect. I wonder if the left can say the same?

 

[fix]

One EWTN host asked about how the Pope will pose challenges to Republican Catholics.

A better question is how he will challenge Democrat Catholics? His quotes regarding homosexual unions and adoption alone are enough to show nothing is changing one bit.

 

[ProVobis]

One EWTN host asked about how the Pope will pose challenges to Republican Catholics.

I listen to some Protestant radio. Very conservative and they are not so happy with the Pope for the very same reasons. They seem to think Jeus was a capitalist which he wasn’t.

I take that to mean that they fear the Pope may ask the governments of the world to extend more of a helping hand to the poor?

 

[Corki]

I take that to mean that they fear the Pope may ask the governments of the world to extend more of a helping hand to the poor?

And probably that they shouldn’t put up barriers against faith-based groups who are trying to assist the poor. That’s been a hot-button issue in the US and in some Latin American countries.

 

[Brendan_64]

I am a Republican conservative Catholic in the Burkean tradition. I have no love for soulless capitalism (aka corporate capitalism). I have no problem at all with anything that the Holy Father is saying. What he is saying is the teaching of the Church, after all. I am listening with complete respect. I wonder if the left can say the same?

It is not about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ it is about the teachings of our Church. Let’s not transpose our flawed political points of view on something as important as the message of God spoken through our Pope. Sometimes I get the impression that some Catholics see themselves first and foremost as either politically ‘left’ or ‘right’ and then view the Church in light of their flawed secular political views.

Pope Francis’s homily this morning was simply amazing. The message was crystal clear: we have a duty to protect the poor, the sick, the elderly, those who are in hunger, those who are thirsty. And our duty to protect children (something that as a Church we are guilty of failure). We have a duty to protect the environment, to protect the world that God has created for us… Those in positions of political and economic power have a particular duty to use this power to protect the poor and the needy. And the homily was delivered with such simplicity and clarity from a simple, humble man.

Pope Francis is truly the choice of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit spoke through him today. This man will be an amazing Pope who will refocus our Church on the true message of Christ. His emphasis on protecting children will, I hope, herald an end to collusion and cover-up and a much needed clear out of clergy (at whatever level) who are guilty of cover-up regarding pedophile priests.

A simple, humble, caring, compassionate Pope. One who cares less about pomp and ceremony, and more about the downtrodden, the poor, the helpless, and one who will focus on caring for those less fortunate than ourselves. One who will reform the Vatican and the Church hierarchy worldwide (and we are certainly in need of that).

God bless Pope Francis!

 

[Brendan_64]

I’m fine if a Cardinal wants to squeeze himself into a Fiat to get around town. What bothers me is this attitude creeping in that somehow that’s the right thing to do or that we should “demand” Cardinals to get around that way when in Rome. That kind of attitude is very dangerous, IMO, since it attempts to strip the Cardinals of dignity and deference.

Dignity comes from within, it has nothing to do with the car the person travels in. I cannot see how a Cardinal travelling in a small car is somehow being stripped of dignity.

How much dignity did Francis of Assisi have? How much dignity did Jesus have when he travelled on foot and lived in poverty?

 

[fix]

Actually there was a very interesting post in Father Z’s blog today.

Father Z, when young, used to shy away from the ‘smells and bells’ because he thought they were putting too much emphasis on HIM. (A wrong idea which is apparently still being embraced by some priests). . .

Then he realized by studying Scripture that the ‘sacrificial victim’ had ALWAYS been treated with special care. It was always the ‘lamb without blemish’ and always presented with great RITUAL. From the time of Abel’s offering of ‘the very best’, our sacrifices to God have been the same.

The PRIEST at Mass is the sacrificial victim, the "alter Christ’ and this is a reason why He (and also in extension the Sacred Body and Blood requiring to be kept in 'precious vessels) dressed in special vestments and was treated with such care (the Latin Mass is good for showing this).

Likewise, the Pope is Christ’s representative - not simply "Christ the Man’ who worked the earth as a poor man, but Christ the KING who is seated on the throne of heaven and WHO WILL COME IN GLORY.

That is the reason that the Pope wears ‘simple clothing’ when he is ‘at home’ but wears ‘robes’ and a crown and is escorted by men wearing ceremonial clothing and taken in things like the ‘popemobile’. . .because he represents the RISEN Christ, the CROWNED Christ, the KING Christ, who is representing the King in the performance of the King’s duties.

Too many seem to think that Popes or priests should be only "Christ the poor man’ and don’t want them to be Christ OUR VICTIM AND OUR KING (as the hymn goes).

There is no need for making something an ‘either-or’ when it’s a both-and. We don’t have to limit the Pope, or our priests, to ‘one’ representation of Christ. We can let the Pope and our priests be the FULL representatives of the WHOLE Christ. . .as it should be.

Much of what I have read mistakenly puts this current Pope at odds with the previous Popes. That is a mistake and not true. Different styles do not make one right and one wrong. It is just wishful thinking on the parts of some.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is not about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ it is about the teachings of our Church. Let’s not transpose our flawed political points of view on something as important as the message of God spoken through our Pope. Sometimes I get the impression that some Catholics see themselves first and foremost as either politically ‘left’ or ‘right’ and then view the Church in light of their flawed secular political views.

Pope Francis’s homily this morning was simply amazing. The message was crystal clear: we have a duty to protect the poor, the sick, the elderly, those who are in hunger, those who are thirsty. And our duty to protect children (something that as a Church we are guilty of failure). We have a duty to protect the environment, to protect the world that God has created for us… Those in positions of political and economic power have a particular duty to use this power to protect the poor and the needy. And the homily was delivered with such simplicity and clarity from a simple, humble man.

Pope Francis is truly the choice of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit spoke through him today. This man will be an amazing Pope who will refocus our Church on the true message of Christ. His emphasis on protecting children will, I hope, herald an end to collusion and cover-up and a much needed clear out of clergy (at whatever level) who are guilty of cover-up regarding pedophile priests.

A simple, humble, caring, compassionate Pope. One who cares less about pomp and ceremony, and more about the downtrodden, the poor, the helpless, and one who will focus on caring for those less fortunate than ourselves. One who will reform the Vatican and the Church hierarchy worldwide (and we are certainly in need of that).

God bless Pope Francis!

I agree. There is no liberal or conservative in our Church, or the Gospel. There is only Truth.

 

[Corki]

Dignity comes from within, it has nothing to do with the car the person travels in. I cannot see how a Cardinal travelling in a small car is somehow being stripped of dignity.

Did you read what I wrote? :banghead: There is nothing undignified about a Cardinal driving around in a small car. What I was objecting to was people trying to force this type of choice on the Princes of our Church.

How much dignity did Francis of Assisi have? How much dignity did Jesus have when he travelled on foot and lived in poverty?

topics for another thread but irrelevant here.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

It is not about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ it is about the teachings of our Church. Let’s not transpose our flawed political points of view on something as important as the message of God spoken through our Pope. Sometimes I get the impression that some Catholics see themselves first and foremost as either politically ‘left’ or ‘right’ and then view the Church in light of their flawed secular political views.

Pope Francis’s homily this morning was simply amazing. The message was crystal clear: we have a duty to protect the poor, the sick, the elderly, those who are in hunger, those who are thirsty. And our duty to protect children (something that as a Church we are guilty of failure). We have a duty to protect the environment, to protect the world that God has created for us… Those in positions of political and economic power have a particular duty to use this power to protect the poor and the needy. And the homily was delivered with such simplicity and clarity from a simple, humble man.

Pope Francis is truly the choice of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit spoke through him today. This man will be an amazing Pope who will refocus our Church on the true message of Christ. His emphasis on protecting children will, I hope, herald an end to collusion and cover-up and a much needed clear out of clergy (at whatever level) who are guilty of cover-up regarding pedophile priests.

A simple, humble, caring, compassionate Pope. One who cares less about pomp and ceremony, and more about the downtrodden, the poor, the helpless, and one who will focus on caring for those less fortunate than ourselves. One who will reform the Vatican and the Church hierarchy worldwide (and we are certainly in need of that).

God bless Pope Francis!

They are children while in the womb, too.