Pope Francis wants Church to be poor, and for the poor

[Corki]

Their will be a lot of bishops who are going to get more of a comeuppance from this pope and I think it is a good thing.

Can you explain this more? Much of what Pope Francis has said to the Cardinals in his first few days has emphases collegiality. I don’t see him giving any bishop a “comeuppance”.

If anything, IMHO, this will be felt amoung the Bishop by way of who is ordained as new bishops or elevated to Cardinal ranks during his papacy.

 

[JPCheryl]

Hmmmm…I wonder of Jesus would recognize His church were he to wander around these grand edifices you love. I love beauty too, but this kind of beauty is at odds with the needs of real live people…the poor for instance. The church does not need to be rich to minister to the poor. Jesus was not rich and that was the point wasn’t it? He ministered to the poor who had been abandoned by the rich. The rich have never helped the poor, not in the past, not now, not in the future. Matthew: Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

I do not expect Pope Francis to strip the Catholic Church of all of this grandeur, but I do expect him to put it back on the road to ministering to those that Jesus ministered to and the poor are certainly at the top of that list. We’ve gotten away from that, at least in my opinion and that is now something Pope Francis is going to remind us of.

I am very hopeful and very optimistic that our Church is going to be going in a healthy and wonderful direction that will bring harmony and joy to ALL Catholics.

QUOTE=CutlerB;10493313]The Church needs to be rich/prosperous in order to help the poor. I see a contradiction in her being poor and helping the poor. About the pomp: I am a huge fan of ornate and beautiful churches, and in fact I think that every church should be a marvel. They express the glory of God and heaven, and that’s why I don’t want to see some regulations or so imposed that restrict that (I doubt that will happen).

In line with the Holy Fathers attitude, I advocate humility in person and behavior, but beauty and majesty in all things pertaining to God.

 

[jwinch2]

I just wonder whether they realize that they didn’t get an official, Catholic blessing because of that fact.

Yes. No one seems to be mentioning that part.

I am extremely sensitive to quotes by Catholic leaders that make it seem like any religion is a.o.k. when in reality it should be clear that the Catholic Faith is the fullness of the Faith.

Agreed. How in the world are we going to evangelize anyone if we do not proclaim the Church as the mystical body of Christ who contains the fullness of truth?

 

[Corki]

Yes, I agree. But didn’t St. Francis live out the Gospels more perfectly than anyone besides Jesus? Didn’t St. Francis live by the Beattitudes? Only time will tell what Pope Francis means exactly I guess.

“more perfectly than anyone besides Jesus”? No, I don’t think I would give that hyperbole to St. Francis. He was a very holy man but not the next thing to Jesus. Many others have lived out the Gospels as closely, if not more so, than St. Francis.

 

[jwinch2]

I believe the poor he speaks of (in terms of a poor church) are the poor in spirit.

Agreed. That is the most logical interpretation of his statements, and the most in keeping with Church tradition.

 

[jwinch2]

On what it means to serve the poor.

ubispiritus.blogspot.it/2013/03/what-it-means-to-serve-poor.html

In these days following the election of Pope Francis, there have been some (not the new Holy Father himself, of course) who have tried to create a wedge between the Church’s call to serve the physical needs of the poor and her call to serve their spiritual needs. To those who believe that a commitment to the poor is contrary to a commitment to spendor in the worship of God, I think Holy Family Church parish in Columbus remains a shining counter-example.

The parish is a part of the Diocese of Columbus. While in the Diocese, I learned of one of the great ministries of outreach to the poor, the soup kitchen at Holy Family parish. The church, and the soup kitchen and pantry, are located in one of the poorest neighborhoods of the city. The soup kitchen serves 700 hot meals every day, Monday through Saturday. The pantry serves, on average, 250 families every week with food assistance. The parish stands out in the Diocese for its dedication to serving the poor in its own neighborhood.

The parish stands out in another way. It is home to the extraordinary form of the Mass, celebrated there every week. Just as the soup kitchen served those who hunger for food to keep them alive, so the Mass, in its traditional form, serves those who hunger for the rich splendor of the traditions of the Catholic Church.

The first duty of the Church is to preach the good news, to be the instrument of salvation, the sacrament of the encounter with Jesus Christ. That means her first duty is to present the splendor of salvation present through the ancient symbols of her liturgy. It should be done, as the Second Vatican Council reminded us, with a degree of noble simplicity. Noble because its very essence touches the most exalted. Simple so that our ostentation does not obscure the true beauty of God himself.

In this we look to the saints. St. John Vianney, the Cure of Ars, was known as a diligent priest who gave everything he was in service to his people–in preaching, in teaching, and especially in hearing confessions. He was also an example of a priest who, though never taking a religious vow of poverty himself, lived a life of poverty. It is said that he would allow his own priestly clothes–his black cassock–to fall almost to tatters. Why? So that he might better provide for the beauty of the liturgy. St. John Vianney believed in a radical detachment from wealth in the world, especially wealth for its own sake or merely personal comfort. In so doing, that radical detachment from worldly riches opened him up to a finer appreciation for the riches of God. The things of this world are meant to sustain man, but to give glory to God.

To set our duty to serve the material needs of the poor against the splendor of divine worship is nothing less than an attempt to split Christ in two. And the converse is just as true. We can say the Mass with perfect adherence to the rubrics and in the most perfect vestments, but if we fail to serve Christ in the suffering of our neighbors we tear Christ in two. We believe in the one person of Christ, the perfect union of a human and a divine nature in the one divine person. In its service to the poor, the Church must serve the whole man, body and soul, for only then does she serve God.

The best line in the article in my view: To set our duty to serve the poor against the splendor of divine worship is nothing less than to split Christ in two.

 

[jwinch2]

I think some people think that St. Francis wanted Mass to held in barns and the fields, and the Eucharist placed in tin cups and boxes, all in the name of ‘poverty.’

As other posters well versed in Franciscan writings, such as JR Education, have told us, that is NOT what St. Francis advocated AT ALL.

Some people are going to be surprised!

St. Francis and the Liturgy:
newliturgicalmovement.org/2013/03/st-francis-and-liturgy.html

…many people often have a very stunted view of that saint – one which seems to assume that the radical living of the gospel and poverty is somehow at odds with liturgical centrality, beauty and excellence. Nothing could be further from the truth!

This is encouraging, and I am hopeful that it is also correct.

 

[jwinch2]

**The Pope’s call for simplicity and Church music. **

chantcafe.com/2013/03/is-chant-in-danger_15.html

I just got off the phone with an older priest in Wisconsin who was ordering the Parish Book of Chant for his small congregation. He told me that he is inspired by the sensibility of Pope Francis to rediscover the roots of our faith, strip away artificials, and just simply sing what’s true. To this priest that means that his congregation must rediscover the core music of the Catholic people.

He concluded in his talk with me: “Maybe the new Pope and his call for simplicity will help fix the musical problems in the Church too.”

The new Pope’s emphasis on austerity, humility, and simplicity – underscored by his choice of name and his tendency to eschew material signs of wealth or position – shouldn’t necessarily be a cause for concern. No music is so simple in structure as plainsong, nothing can compare with its austerity., and every musician is profoundly aware of the humility required to defer to its role in the Church’s liturgy.

There was a faction at the Council of Trent that took the idea of austerity so seriously that it wanted to legislate against all music in Mass except the Gregorian chant. They wanted polyphony out. They were against organs. Popular hymnody would have been banned completely. This was all in the name of reform to purge conceit and opulence after the crisis of the Reformation. Fortunately – and mostly thanks to the intervention of the Spanish Bishops and King – this faction did not get its way.

But the point remains: for Catholic who seek a restoration of fundamental and simple truths in faith and worship, the chant tradition has been there as a symbol of what they seek. The text is holy Scripture. The music is evocative of the text. The music is a dedicated servant of the liturgical action and not employed solely to pass the time or entertain…

 

[LilyM]

Tantum, beauty and excellence is not the same thing as trappings and material splendour.

I’m sure all of us have come across, for example, women who are naturally beautiful but so overload themselves with makeup and tons of jewellery and fake tan and cloying amounts of perfume and in doing so completely spoil the effect and end up looking anything but beautiful.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hmmmm…I wonder of Jesus would recognize His church were he to wander around these grand edifices you love. I love beauty too, but this kind of beauty is at odds with the needs of real live people…the poor for instance. The church does not need to be rich to minister to the poor. Jesus was not rich and that was the point wasn’t it? He ministered to the poor who had been abandoned by the rich. The rich have never helped the poor, not in the past, not now, not in the future. Matthew: Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

I do not expect Pope Francis to strip the Catholic Church of all of this grandeur, but I do expect him to put it back on the road to ministering to those that Jesus ministered to and the poor are certainly at the top of that list. We’ve gotten away from that, at least in my opinion and that is now something Pope Francis is going to remind us of.

I am very hopeful and very optimistic that our Church is going to be going in a healthy and wonderful direction that will bring harmony and joy to ALL Catholics.

I agree wholeheartedly. I will let the Pope expand on his words, and I will support him.

 

[jwinch2]

I do not expect Pope Francis to strip the Catholic Church of all of this grandeur, but I do expect him to put it back on the road to ministering to those that Jesus ministered to and the poor are certainly at the top of that list. We’ve gotten away from that, at least in my opinion and that is now something Pope Francis is going to remind us of.

Did I miss something? When did the Church stop ministering to the poor that we need to get back to it? In the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic, I would concede your point, but in modern times? I’m not seeing that at all. Unless I am completely crazy, I seem to remember Pope Benedict speaking about the need to help the poor quite often. In addition, one of his three encyclicals was on Christian Charity.

If there are things that we can improve or do a better job of when it comes to assisting the poor, I have zero problem with that. In addition, I would acknowledge that all of us could personally stand to do more when it comes to helping others, myself definitely included. However, I have difficulty with the implications or suggestions that Church has somehow forgotten the poor in recent years in such a way that we need to get back to it.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Did I miss something? When did the Church stop ministering to the poor that we need to get back to it?

Exactly.

I think simplicity is a perfectly healthy and legitimate aspect of a larger spirituality. But to assert that grandeur in liturgy is opposed to helping the poor is silly at best, ignorant of the history of the Church at worst. Card. Burke seems to throw on his cappa with joy, yet he is one of the gentlest and most soft-spoken people I’ve ever seen.

 

[Thomas_B]

I love Pope Francis’ frugality and commitment to the poor. In this world of materialism, it is a welcome breath of fresh air. I also love his commitment to social justice. Seems like it has been since the 80’s since there has been much talk of social justice. I think he is going to provide the challenges that people need- really attacking the root causes of sin, selfishness and greed and setting a great examples for our priests, bishops and cardinals to follow. I am so happy we have Pope Francis.

 

[Lucky7]

Did I miss something? When did the Church stop ministering to the poor that we need to get back to it? In the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic, I would concede your point, but in modern times? I’m not seeing that at all. Unless I am completely crazy, I seem to remember Pope Benedict speaking about the need to help the poor quite often. In addition, one of his three encyclicals was on Christian Charity.

If there are things that we can improve or do a better job of when it comes to assisting the poor, I have zero problem with that. In addition, I would acknowledge that all of us could personally stand to do more when it comes to helping others, myself definitely included. However, I have difficulty with the implications or suggestions that Church has somehow forgotten the poor in recent years in such a way that we need to get back to it.

In certain circles the call *to get back *to ministering the poor means let’s get away from gay marriage and abortion.

 

[Rosebud77]

A friend wrote in this thread: “St. Francis was fairly orthodox, wasn’t he? He never tried to upset Church apple carts from what I understand.”

Well, I hate to upset the apple cart of this thread, but if you read a thorough and historically accurate biography of Saint Francis, I think you will see that Saint Francis and his movement were viewed as a dire threat by the popes and most bishops. In the end, his movement was approved, but only after it was changed contrary to the wishes and strong objections of Saint Francis. In the end, Saint Francis felt as if his movement had been crushed. After Saint Francis died, there were movements started by Catholics attempting to resurrect the original movement that Saint Francis has started. They in turn were ruthlessly hunted down and crushed by Church authorities. In truth, while Saint Francis was orthodox in term of doctrine, he was very radical in calling popes, bishops and priests to stop living lives of luxury above the common people, and in calling the Church leaders to break with their habit of being defenders and supporters of the rich and start being defenders and supporters of the poor. These aren’t my opinions. Go and get an honest, thorough biography Saint Francis, go get an honest, thorough history of the Franciscan movement, and you’ll see that this is all accurate.

Thank you for this. Add to it please that Siant Francis was not an ecologist or a defender of creation. He simply lived in the world then and thanked God for all there. Canticle of the Sun was a tiny and light hearted and trivial scrap of his writings. Add too that even before his death, Francis had abandined leadership because he could not live the life he was led to within the new order that bore and bears no resemblance to his rule or his life, and I speak as a former franciscan who chose a different route as I needed to serve and live as he did. The elitism and wealth in the Church sickens me frankly and I will have no truck with it.

 

[Rosebud77]

Pope Francis strikes me as a man who understands that, at least the appearance of, hypocrisy turns people off to whatever it is you’re trying to tell them. I certainly wouldn’t be inclined to listen to a man standing before me in silk robes trimmed with gold, luxurious velvet and fur cascading off his shoulders, and dripping with jewels tell me that I need to be more humble. With that in mind, I think he may rid the Vatican of some its assets. Why does the Church need luxury resorts, sports centers, and strip malls? The Vatican currently owns 20-25%of all residential and commercial properties, mostly as a result of bequeathment, in Italy and I don’t envision a man like Pope Francis as being inclined to maintain this money-making enterprise. Profits are not the mission of the Church. I see loads of worldly reform happening in the future.

Amen to this. Thank you

The Church has become worldly …here in Ireland we see this now when so many are struggling to put food on their tables yet the Church and religious live in luxury and fgive so little. Need to give of their reality.

 

[Rosebud77]

Did I miss something? When did the Church stop ministering to the poor that we need to get back to it? In the time of St. Francis and St. Dominic, I would concede your point, but in modern times? I’m not seeing that at all. Unless I am completely crazy, I seem to remember Pope Benedict speaking about the need to help the poor quite often. In addition, one of his three encyclicals was on Christian Charity.

If there are things that we can improve or do a better job of when it comes to assisting the poor, I have zero problem with that. In addition, I would acknowledge that all of us could personally stand to do more when it comes to helping others, myself definitely included. However, I have difficulty with the implications or suggestions that Church has somehow forgotten the poor in recent years in such a way that we need to get back to it.

Walk the streets of any city and say this then… the Church does and gives a little and keeps a huge part and lives luxury.

The true glory of God surely is a world where no baby dies of hunger; what use supporting pro-life if like Mother Teresa you let babies die while haveing millions of dollars… and this example is one that applies throughout the Church

Utter hyporisy and smug too.

Here., rather feed a baby than eat richly. So eat simply and give the money. Please God our new Holy Father does this

 

[BillyT926]

Walk the streets of any city and say this then… the Church does and gives a little and keeps a huge part and lives luxury.

The true glory of God surely is a world where no baby dies of hunger; what use supporting pro-life if like Mother Teresa you let babies die while haveing millions of dollars… and this example is one that applies throughout the Church

Utter hyporisy and smug too.

Here., rather feed a baby than eat richly. So eat simply and give the money. Please God our new Holy Father does this

You couldn’t be more wrong, and are calumniating the Church (and Bl. Theresa too)

 

[epan]

I don’t see any ordinary clergy living in luxury. Bishops and high church bureaucracy might be another matter. The art treasures of the Vatican do generate a lot of income from the museums. I have no idea how that money is used. For all I know, it is used to meet basic expenses, and with any surplus to help the poor.

I’m not sure what Francis is referring to. There really isn’t that much fat, when one considers the entire Church and clergy. I suppose anything can be run more efficiently, if it has not been examined closely in a while.

 

[jwinch2]

Walk the streets of any city and say this then… the Church does and gives a little and keeps a huge part and lives luxury.

The true glory of God surely is a world where no baby dies of hunger; what use supporting pro-life if like Mother Teresa you let babies die while haveing millions of dollars… and this example is one that applies throughout the Church

Utter hyporisy and smug too.

Here., rather feed a baby than eat richly. So eat simply and give the money. Please God our new Holy Father does this

So you are accusing Mother Teresa of letting babies die while having millions of dollars? Awesome. You just created an instant loss of credibility for yourself on this forum, and earned your way onto my blocked members list in record time.