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severus68
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It is a very weak arguement.
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CatholicHockey7
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Everything else aside, here’s what I’ve been saying for the past few months:
Not all leaders are Christians, but ALL Christians are called to be leaders.
I do think many of both genders have the misguided notion that you have to have a title to be a leader. But what is a leader? A leader is simply someone who influences others.
We can lead people to greatness or to destruction by our words and actions. This is why it is so important to follow the advice of St. Francis of Asisi, “Preach the Gospel at all times, use words when necessary.”
Not all leaders are Christians, but ALL Christians are called to be leaders.
I do think many of both genders have the misguided notion that you have to have a title to be a leader. But what is a leader? A leader is simply someone who influences others.
We can lead people to greatness or to destruction by our words and actions. This is why it is so important to follow the advice of St. Francis of Asisi, “Preach the Gospel at all times, use words when necessary.”
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Elizabeth502
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I’ll thank you to please stop mischaracterizing the posts of others.
I know what I said, and it was most certainly not a generic rejection of women in leadership positions in the Church. A quick search of my posting history would have amply demonstrated quite the opposite on CAF.
And on this particular thread, I asked a poster to get specific about what he meant by “the day-to-day business,” because that can mean a lot of things – from activities which women will never be and should never be a part of, such as the ministerial priesthood (lots of “day-to-day business” there), to the more specific suggestion(s) of some that women leapfrog over the roles which they are already denied and will be permanently denied (priesthood, episcopate), “so that they can be Cardinals and vote for a Pope.” That is illogical, imprudent, and contradictory on its face, for the reasons I stated.
As for “influence” in the Holy See, they already do have that, and directly. Pope Francis is obviously free to suggest an expanded role for them there, but he has yet to formulate (apparently) any concrete application of “a greater role for women.” I guarantee you that it won’t be the kind of essential experience that would be necessary for any woman to make an effective Cardinal.
Finally, any more day-to-day business directed by women, and Mass attendance will move from 80% female to 98% female. (The 2% of us females who really dig guys in the Church will not be interested in female dominated parishes.)
In the ministerial priesthood?
Do you have barely visible women in your parish? Most in the States belong to parishes overwhelming managed by women who have been educated, trained, and have abundant opportunity to lead. Just not in clerical positions.
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triumphguy
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And “I’ll thank you to stop” reacting personally to things that weren’t addressed to or about you.
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CatholicHockey7
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I think you’re mis-characterizing my post with this comment. I was not speaking of parish business, but rather global church business such as the operations of the Vatican Bank.
In all reality, I doubt this would even be possible (let alone actually happen in my lifetime).
As for the day-to-day operations of each parish, that’s a whole nother can of worms.
And I’m confused by your post. Are you saying men are staying away because women run the parishes? If so, are you saying women should have less responsibility in the church and be replaced by men so more men will attend mass? Most importantly, do you have any statistics that support your argument that mass attendance is currently 80 percent and would move to 98 percent female? I haven’t witnessed that in my own parish at all.
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Church_Man
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Several have commented that, “Women have never been deacons,” or “They were deaconesses and functioned differently than male deacons” or “Male deacons were ordained and women deaconesses received a blessing.” Or “The only thing they did was assist with baptisms at the Easter Vigil. Other than that, they had no role.”
This is from the EWTN website on The Council of Chalcedon - 451 A.D. Article #15 ( ewtn.com/library/councils/chalcedo.htm )
***15 *No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.
So what do I get out of this bit of history?
I would hope the Pope would commission a study of the role of women deacons in the early church so we can all speak intelligently about what women deacons did do and their function in the early church. Otherwise, our conversations are out of ignorance.
This is from the EWTN website on The Council of Chalcedon - 451 A.D. Article #15 ( ewtn.com/library/councils/chalcedo.htm )
***15 *No woman under forty years of age is to be ordained a deacon, and then only after close scrutiny. If after receiving ordination and spending some time in the ministry she despises God’s grace and gets married, such a person is to be anathematised along with her spouse.
So what do I get out of this bit of history?
- There were women deacons.
- They were ordained. (It’s stated twice). Not “blessed,” “commissioned,” but “ordained.”
I would hope the Pope would commission a study of the role of women deacons in the early church so we can all speak intelligently about what women deacons did do and their function in the early church. Otherwise, our conversations are out of ignorance.
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Godric2
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That is a very good point. However, it may also seem good to the Holy Spirit to encourage development of ministry as time goes on, it is not, surely, merely a looking back at what was.
Nevertheless some examples, like Hilda of Whitby presiding over a community of Monks and Nuns, are useful to consider today.
G.
Our Lady of the Crag
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commenter
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This quote is sometimes connected to St. Francis. However, the first reference is hundreds of years after he lived. There are many other quotes attributed to Francis recorded by people who knew him, written down soon after he died.
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clem456
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Good questions. We’ve had a female pastoral associate for 15 years in our parish. They are responsible for adult ed, sacrament prep classes, youth classes (psr), all under the supervision of the pastor of course. A woman runs the RCIA program with the assistance of the associate pastor. We have a normal demographic of men and women mass attendance. No men are turned off by having women serve as catechists, lectors, emhcs, altar servers, cantors, etc…
Why are mostly women filling these positions? Cause men don’t, and the women who step up are willing and qualified to do it. We need their gifts, inspiration, and commitment in the Church.
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triumphguy
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This quote is sometimes connected to St. Francis. However, the first reference is hundreds of years after he lived. There are many other quotes attributed to Francis recorded by people who knew him, written down soon after he died.
That quote is distilled from his writings, and accurately reflects them…
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triumphguy
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When I started the thread I was hoping there would be some good ideas…
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johnthebaptist2
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Well all I can say is that, we should leave it up to the Pope,in figuring what role a women should do in the Catholic Parish,to what position they are aloud to do.As for them becoming Priest I don,t see the Pope allowing it to happen.When I started the thread I was hoping there would be some good ideas…
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clem456
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Maybe it’s not a matter of having ideas (who here is qualified to speak on this issue, really?), but more a matter of rediscovering the depth of our vocations, especially in light of Mary the Mother of God.
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ProVobis
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I heard on Catholic Radio that the reason for women deacons in the early Church was solely to baptize the women. People were required to be naked in order to be baptized, so when that practice was changed there was no further need for female deacons.
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edwest2
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What?
ncregister.com/site/article/vatican_letter_censures_women_deacon_courses/
This is just a ‘let’s skip womenpriests and go straight to womencardinals’ thread.
Sheesh.
You will not see ads in your local classifieds like “Women wanted for Cardinal positions. Little experience necessary. And hey, if it don’t work out, it don’t.”
Peace,
Ed
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1AugustSon7
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I disagree in part and agree in part. Let’s start with the negative so we can finish on the positive. The Church can hardly be blamed for the existence of radical leftist feminism but she does have to continue her mission and growth in Christ notwithstanding the, so to speak, environment she finds herself in; but I cannot at all agree that the Church’s call or desire for a greater role for women in her life and ministry can at all be “all about power”; if that were so, then she wouldn’t be making such a call or expressing such a desire in the first place.
I agree -though I do not think radical feminism can be entirely blamed for this, I think it’s part and parcel of a broader social trend that it as old as the fall of man- that too many people are liable to associate or interpret - even perhaps our shepherds and pastors - “a greater role for women” as meaning “more authority over others” and even worse, simply “more power”, in the sense of determination and domination: i.e. dictatorially. Now of course that simply doesn’t jive with Christian logic about authority and power anyways, even if there was a necessary link (there is not) between “a greater role for women in the Church” and “more authority/power for women (presumably clerical or connected to Holy Orders).”
Firstly, in the Church, authority and “power” comes from, one: being-sent (mission or commissioned, ultimately by God and in accordance with his will); and, two: being-servant to others (ministry); it is not a “lordly” mentality or a mentality of “over-lording” or “lording over” others. Exactly so, a greater role for women does not, as such, have any connection at all to Holy Orders or juiridical authority in the Church.
However, “a greater role” does mean, of course, something. From a sort of Human Resources Department perspective, we might well interpret it as a call for the Church to consider what more women can do in and for the Church - a sort of wiser use of the resources the Holy Spirit gives us in Christian women which, no doubt, is of enormous potential, and how we can realize that potential. Still, the idea -to be fair to it- does invoke a more active part for women in the life and mission of the Church, which cannot possibly happen without greater association or participation with the clergy.
But no doubt it does mean a real and greater participation of women in the active leadership or decision-making process of the Church. This, of course, can in no way prejudice what is of divine constitution for the Church; notwithstanding, insofar as nothing is so prejudiced, there is freedom for the Church to make changes that can allow women a greater share and perhaps, in a certain sense, responsibility in or for the Church ad maiorem Dei gloriam. I think it is very important to keep in mind - as the Holy Father himself pointed to - Our Lady as we try to work out and understand what might be the Spirit’s desire and God’s will in this calling of the Church to thinking about and realizing this greater role for women in God’s holy church.
Peace to you too, Ed,
August.
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kozlosap
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TimothyH
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There certainly is drama.When I started the thread I was hoping there would be some good ideas…
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clem456
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vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20131013_omelia-giornata-mariana_en.html…
I think it is very important to keep in mind - as the Holy Father himself pointed to - **Our Lady **as we try to work out and understand what might be the Spirit’s desire and God’s will in this calling of the Church to thinking about and realizing this greater role for women in God’s holy church.
Peace to you too, Ed,
August.
Clearly in God’s eyes, service and leadership are not about power or position, they are about following God’s call.
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TimothyH
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The part about being caught up in our own ideological and intellectual security is sublime.
-Tim-
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