Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

[1AugustSon7]

Eastern Catholics have a strong Tradition which holds that Mary was brought to the Temple by her parents Joachim and Anne at the age of three to be consecrated to the service of God. She was led into the Holy of Holies by the father of John the Baptist, the High Priest Zechariah, and there she danced before the Ark of God.

Now that is an absolutely beautiful image: the little child Mary dancing before her God, Maker, Redeemer and Saviour. This is worthy of the finest artist; though they, I think - if humble - would not feel worthy of it.

I am reminded of …

Proverbs 8:30-31 (D-R):
I [Wisdom] was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men.

This sort of imagery - oddly radical in a certain sense (certainly for the Puritans at least, but then again everything scandalizes them) - is perhaps my favorite sort in Christianity and Catholicism: A little girl dancing for joy for and about her God, and amusing herself at the children of men: like a kid in a candy store rejoicing at the sheer abundance of possible joys, delights and goodness about her; or daddy’s little girl bubbling-up from the simple joy and happy security of and in being loved.

Just beautiful.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I welcome correction on this…

Eastern Catholics have a strong Tradition which holds that Mary was brought to the Temple by her parents Joachim and Anne at the age of three to be consecrated to the service of God. She was led into the Holy of Holies by the father of John the Baptist, the High Priest Zechariah, and there she danced before the Ark of God. She stayed in the temple for nine years and did not want to leave except for death or marriage.

Prior to these events, no man could come in contact with God except by entering the Holy of Holies and then only the priest once each year. Aside from the priest once each year, Mary was the first to come in contact with God inside the Holy of Holies, and then later in her womb before he became visible to creation. Mary became the temple in which God dwelt and now we are the living temples where God the Holy Spirit dwells. Mary was the first to be the temple of the living God and we are now temples of the Holy Spirit.

Man is now free. God dwells with man rather than man traveling to the Temple to be in the presence of God.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Revelation 21:2-3)

Mary became the Holy of Holies and her entrance marks the end of the Temple as the dwelling place of God. Mary inaugurates the new temple. It is out of respect for Mary that no woman entered the Holy of Holies. She was the first and no woman need go there.

The Eastern Churches celebrate the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos on Nov 21.

-Tim-

Tim, that is fine for the Eastern Catholics if they want to keep that tradition. I will not comment on the EC traditions. We are Latin, and that is not part of our tradition, and is not part of our Marian tradition, either. I don’t accept that explanation, because it is not Scriptural or part of Sacred Tradition or even part of the Latin tradition. But it is an interesting fact about the Eastern Churches, thank you for posting it. It is good to learn something new.

 

[CB_Catholic]

There is a very destructive phenomenon that has truly taken a terrible toll at my parish. Over the past few decades almost all the visible and liturgical ministries have become headed and largely staffed by females. At least 90% are females. The long-standing excuse is that men did not want to be involved which was simply not true. If you were not a female and not a member of the insider’s track (outsider females were also shunned), you would rarely be allowed to serve in such a ministry and you would never be allowed to head one.

After three or four decades this practice has taken a terrible toll on my parish. Truly horrific. It is true today that almost no one (male or female) wants to serve in these ministries at my parish today because people don’t want to be associated with those in charge or the damage they have done (driving souls away from the parish or the Church altogether.) One day we might get a pastor that will clean things up once and for all but I’m not holding my breath.

One thing I know is that a pastor needs to be closely involved with such ministries and there needs to definite lengths to serving in such ministries. Maybe it’s something like “3 on and 3 off” but lifetime readers, EMHCs, altar servers, really take a toll in some parishes.

I feel sorry that your parish has allowed itself itself to take this path. Whether you believe it or not, it is not this way in most parishes. It is a shame that people don’t seem to have the courage to step up to the plate to correct this situation in your parish. It really is nothing but a form of bullying. I also find it disconcerting that in 40 years there has not been one pastor who has been able to get a grip on this?

 

[CB_Catholic]

I welcome correction on this…

Eastern Catholics have a strong Tradition which holds that Mary was brought to the Temple by her parents Joachim and Anne at the age of three to be consecrated to the service of God. She was led into the Holy of Holies by the father of John the Baptist, the High Priest Zechariah, and there she danced before the Ark of God. She stayed in the temple for nine years and did not want to leave except for death or marriage.

Prior to these events, no man could come in contact with God except by entering the Holy of Holies and then only the priest once each year. Aside from the priest once each year, Mary was the first to come in contact with God inside the Holy of Holies, and then later in her womb before he became visible to creation. Mary became the temple in which God dwelt and now we are the living temples where God the Holy Spirit dwells. Mary was the first to be the temple of the living God and we are now temples of the Holy Spirit.

Man is now free. God dwells with man rather than man traveling to the Temple to be in the presence of God.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Revelation 21:2-3)

Mary became the Holy of Holies and her entrance marks the end of the Temple as the dwelling place of God. Mary inaugurates the new temple. It is out of respect for Mary that no woman entered the Holy of Holies. She was the first and no woman need go there.

The Eastern Churches celebrate the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokos on Nov 21.

-Tim-

Tim, that is fine for the Eastern Catholics if they want to keep that tradition. I will not comment on the EC traditions. We are Latin, and that is not part of our tradition, and is not part of our Marian tradition, either. I don’t accept that explanation, because it is not Scriptural or part of Sacred Tradition or even part of the Latin tradition. But it is an interesting fact about the Eastern Churches, thank you for posting it. It is good to learn something new.

 

[KP3243]

Modernizism is a heresy people need to read the Catechism it explains everything it’s why Pope Benedict put the universal Church in a Year of Faith, if you haven’t read the Catechism start now.

 

[MorEphrem]

Tim, that is fine for the Eastern Catholics if they want to keep that tradition. I will not comment on the EC traditions. We are Latin, and that is not part of our tradition, and is not part of our Marian tradition, either. I don’t accept that explanation, because it is not Scriptural or part of Sacred Tradition or even part of the Latin tradition. But it is an interesting fact about the Eastern Churches, thank you for posting it. It is good to learn something new.

First of all, I would say it is part of Tradition. Secondly, the Latin Church did not have women enter the sanctuary until the spirit of Vatican II commanded the Latin Church to regularize the profaning of the sanctuary (by that I don’t mean that women are profane or cause profaning, but the idea that the sanctuary is a permeable and freely accessibly area to just enter at will). The reason why the Oriental Churches do not permit women to enter the sanctuary is simple: they cannot hold any of the orders that parallel the angelic hierarchy (i.e. ordination) and the sanctuary is an access to that distanced reality - hence the reason Byzantine/Coptic Churches have iconostases and the Syriac/Armenian Churches have sanctuary veils.

It is not that we do not permit women in the sanctuary. We do not permit the unordained (ordination in itself being a grace bestowed on an unworthy human being to serve God, just like the honor the angels in heaven have) in the sanctuary. The idea of Eastern Catholics having unordained altar servers and lay lectors is both redundant and a latinization where it occurs. To enter the sanctuary one must assume something that is not of their own, hence why vestments are an outward sign of this putting on of something that is not regular. The Latin Church had the same mentality; a subdeacon reads the epistle and the deacon/priest reads the gospel in the TLM.

In summary, why is there outrage towards the fact not everyone can tread through the sanctuary? A poor understanding of what sacred space is.

 

[triumphguy]

Ask Fr. Pacwa, he said St Francis never said it. But it has run like wildfire. God Bless, Memaw

Like I said - they are distilled from his writings and I can quote the exact texts if you like.

 

[CB_Catholic]

First of all, I would say it is part of Tradition. Secondly, the Latin Church did not have women enter the sanctuary until the spirit of Vatican II commanded the Latin Church to regularize the profaning of the sanctuary (by that I don’t mean that women are profane or cause profaning, but the idea that the sanctuary is a permeable and freely accessibly area to just enter at will). The reason why the Oriental Churches do not permit women to enter the sanctuary is simple: they cannot hold any of the orders that parallel the angelic hierarchy (i.e. ordination) and the sanctuary is an access to that distanced reality - hence the reason Byzantine/Coptic Churches have iconostases and the Syriac/Armenian Churches have sanctuary veils.

It is not that we do not permit women in the sanctuary. We do not permit the unordained (ordination in itself being a grace bestowed on an unworthy human being to serve God, just like the honor the angels in heaven have) in the sanctuary. The idea of Eastern Catholics having unordained altar servers and lay lectors is both redundant and a latinization where it occurs. To enter the sanctuary one must assume something that is not of their own, hence why vestments are an outward sign of this putting on of something that is not regular. The Latin Church had the same mentality; a subdeacon reads the epistle and the deacon/priest reads the gospel in the TLM.

In summary, why is there outrage towards the fact not everyone can tread through the sanctuary? A poor understanding of what sacred space is.

You misunderstand. Men have always been allowed to enter the sanctuary, women have not. (Except, I believe, in convents and for cleaning purposes). It is not ordination that has determined this, it is the sex of the person. Altar boys were not ordained. What is there about being a woman that has historically led to this? What makes the sanctuary less holy because a woman has entered it to serve in some capacity at Mass? We are talking about 1/2 of the human race. And I am not in anyway referring to the diaconate or priesthood.

Your Eastern tradition, while appreciated, is not relevant to this. Ordination is not the determining factor to those who object. Sex is.

Anyway, I am done with this. I am sick of it and the misogyny I have seen on these forums, though every attempt is made to cover it up and deny it. (I am not talking about you). If a woman volunteers herself to serve at the altar or in parish positions that men have served in, they are labelled as “radical feminists”, associated with the pro-abortion and woman-priest crowd, and accused of parish takeover or chasing men out. It is ridiculous. Why don’t men take the responsibility for their own failure? Or is it easier to blame the women, as it has been over the centuries?

 

[ProVobis]

Why don’t men take the responsibility for their own failure?

Who said we didn’t?

 

[CB_Catholic]

Who said we didn’t?

I beg your pardon. Some men do, I can’t say they don’t.

Now teach that to those who like to complain that women have taken over, and the men don’t want to get involved because of it. That is not an insignificant number.

BTW, we don’t have these problems in my parish. Men are very active in all aspects of parish life. I’ve been there over 20 years and have yet to see a takeover or competition between the sexes. We have had very good priest leaders who know how to get everyone to step up and get things done.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

For me, this thread is evidence of the problems there are in the Church with regards to women, and I think it is awesome that Pope Francis is starting to address them.

In my experience, the role of women in the Church is, by far, the most polarized. In one camp, there are those who believe that the only role for a woman is that of wife & mother or religious sister. On the other side, there are those who will not be happy until they see “full equality” for woman, up to and including ordination. IMHO, neither are correct and both are equally damaging, and I think that this is the what Pope Francis is trying to get us away from, this polarization.

Women have gifts and talents that can be used in service of the Church in ways that do not diminish the ministerial priesthood. One only needs to look to the Gospels and see that Jesus had a plan for women in the promulgation of the Kingdom. After all, He did choose a woman to be the first to see Him upon His resurrection.

 

[triumphguy]

In John’s Gospel it was a woman who proclaimed Jesus to the Samaritans.

 

[ProVobis]

In John’s Gospel it was a woman who proclaimed Jesus to the Samaritans.

That would be Sister Denise.

 

[Elizabeth502]

In John’s Gospel it was a woman who proclaimed Jesus to the Samaritans.

Again, that is discipleship, not apostleship. All women and all men are called to discipleship.

 

[Horacio]

I feel sorry that your parish has allowed itself itself to take this path. Whether you believe it or not, it is not this way in most parishes. It is a shame that people don’t seem to have the courage to step up to the plate to correct this situation in your parish. It really is nothing but a form of bullying. I also find it disconcerting that in 40 years there has not been one pastor who has been able to get a grip on this?

I sure hope it’s not the case in most parishes. I did however just look through my diocesan guide of all parishes in my diocese. It shows all the clerics, staffers and ministry heads. Even when including the priests and deacons, more than 90% were females. Most have been in place for a very long time. Yes, I have heard all the excuses…

Things are rather of sad in my parish when it comes to the liturgy. As little as a few years ago there was still a fight to fix things. We had a new pastor and there appeared to be a real chance. But in time he “fell into place” just as his predecessors did. I have seen other pastors in other parishes “fix things” but it takes great courage, a very strong work ethic and support from one’s bishop. The attacks on pastors legitimately trying to reform a parish are astounding and truly hateful.

The long, long time insiders have “won” at my parish but the pews are ever more empty. Parish events outside of the Mass are almost completely ignored. Mass feels a lot different than years past. Sort of like a battlefield once the smoke has cleared.

 

[Joannm]

In a few posts above the objection is raised that women don;t have the training or experience necessary to take on leadership positions in the Church.

Think about that for a second…

all it takes is education, training, and opportunity.

So that’s a very weak argument against women in church leadership positions.

BTW the Chancellor of our diocese is a religious sister.

I know a few dioceses where woman are the Chancellor.

 

[Memaw]

Like I said - they are distilled from his writings and I can quote the exact texts if you like.

Please do. I have heard more than one priest on EWTN say that it wasn’t said by St. Francis. God Bless, Memaw

 

[ProVobis]

Now teach that to those who like to complain that women have taken over, and the men don’t want to get involved because of it. That is not an insignificant number.

You’re right, it isn’t. Last Sunday, for example, a woman was asked by the priest to give part of the sermon. I happen to glance around the mostly over-60 crowd and most of the men (and women) were sleeping or trying to stay awake. Have we reached the point that people are only showing up because of the obligation, put in the hour per week, and be done with it? It seems parishes were more vibrant than that in the past.

 

[Memaw]

You’re right, it isn’t. Last Sunday, for example, a woman was asked by the priest to give part of the sermon. I happen to glance around the mostly over-60 crowd and most of the men (and women) were sleeping or trying to stay awake. Have we reached the point that people are only showing up because of the obligation, put in the hour per week, and be done with it? It seems parishes were more vibrant than that in the past.

Only a priest or deacon are allowed to give a Homily, or even part of one. If that continues to happen one should report it to the Bishop, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

For me, this thread is evidence of the problems there are in the Church with regards to women, and I think it is awesome that Pope Francis is starting to address them.

In my experience, the role of women in the Church is, by far, the most polarized. In one camp, there are those who believe that the only role for a woman is that of wife & mother or religious sister. On the other side, there are those who will not be happy until they see “full equality” for woman, up to and including ordination. IMHO, neither are correct and both are equally damaging, and I think that this is the what Pope Francis is trying to get us away from, this polarization.

Women have gifts and talents that can be used in service of the Church in ways that do not diminish the ministerial priesthood. One only needs to look to the Gospels and see that Jesus had a plan for women in the promulgation of the Kingdom. After all, He did choose a woman to be the first to see Him upon His resurrection.

I suggest we have patience and just wait and see what the Holy Father has in mind. In the meantime we pray for him and all of us to be willing to accept his guidance. God Bless, Memaw