Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

[edwest2]

Decision making is frequently seen as an important role.

I would hope that in due course women may have a more central role in the decision making within God’s church.

This is not a remark about priesthood or episcopacy.

Re-membering baptism

What role did you have in mind? Can you provide a specific example about decision making?

Best,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Do the sacred congregations and Vatican decision making bodies have to be so populated by men…

That kind of decision making body.

(By the way I am not an American Catholic)

What is wrong with the current population of men in the sacred congregations?

Best,
Ed

 

[triumphguy]

What role did you have in mind? Can you provide a specific example about decision making?

Best,
Ed

All kinds of decisions get made all the time. And 90% of them have nothing to do with the magisterum.

 

[triumphguy]

What is wrong with the current population of men in the sacred congregations?

Best,
Ed

Why does anything have to be wrong with the men for the Church to benefit from the (name removed by moderator)ut of women?

That’s like saying: there’s something wrong with mothers so we need dads; rather than, moms and dads complement each other.

 

[catholictiger]

Since John Paul II the door has been shut on the ordination of women to Holy Orders.

So what DOES the Pope mean when he says he wants more profound roles for women in the church?

What could be possible?

There is another thread on women as Cardinals, forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=830961 but all Cardinals are currently ordained. So what Is currently possible for women in the Church.

Here’s some articles:

Pope Francis sees maternity as key to women’s role
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19347&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+(Catholic+World+News+(on+CatholicCulture.org

Pope Francis and the Role of Women in the Church
patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2013/10/pope-francis-and-the-role-of-women-in-the-church/

Pope’s Remarks on Women in the Church Call for Deeper Theology, Says Expert
Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/popes-remarks-on-women-in-the-church-call-for-deeper-theology-says-expert/#ixzz2i2lXzfde
ncregister.com/daily-news/popes-remarks-on-women-in-the-church-call-for-deeper-theology-says-expert/

I would be SHOCKED if Pope Francis was pushing for women’s ordination. He may just be encouraging women to continue to be involved with the Church in the ways that they are called to by the Church to be involved in.

 

[clem456]

What is wrong with the current population of men in the sacred congregations?

Best,
Ed

Nothing is inherently wrong with men making decisions.
The Pope’s statements are not an attack on men. Rather an appreciation of women for who they are. The Pope has also been speaking a lot about Mary, the primary role model for both men and women in the faith, who is also a woman.
These discussions should not cause men to be defensive.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Nothing is inherently wrong with men making decisions.
The Pope’s statements are not an attack on men. Rather an appreciation of women for who they are. The Pope has also been speaking a lot about Mary, the primary role model for both men and women in the faith, who is also a woman.
These discussions should not cause men to be defensive.

I don’t see men here as being “defensive.” I see those who know the differentiated roles within the Church to be appropriate to the Founder’s own practice (apostleship: few, male; vs. discipleship: all, both sexes).

To all:

“Decision-making,” among modernist Catholics, is always a subtext, and here a text. Secular women always introduce this when discussing “equality,” and even participation: supposedly women have to have “as many” positions of decision-making as men do, and/or women have to be “visible” in “high-profile” and “critical” or “key” spots. (Anything else, of course, is insulting tokenism.) The same goes for those who fancy themselves women’s “advocates.” Same suppositions, same secular model.

The vast majority of modern-style parishes in the States have been almost utterly laicized in their decision-making, and within that, heavily feminized. OTOH, many, if not most, traditionalist-style parishes look and feel very different, and whatever politics exist, are invisible to any layperson because the activity of that parish is singular: to bring souls closer to God, and the responsibility for the leadership in that area is always the pastor’s. There aren’t that many “decisions” to make (probably what Ed was hinting at) because the business of the parish is largely sacramental, devotional, and of prayer, all of which are the pastor’s prerogative to direct and control. There is no inherent “right” to “decision-making” in any of the latter. As to the music, it is largely in Latin, and choirmasters serve at the pleasure of the pastor. In such parishes, lay women and lay men are not making many “decisions,” at least regarding “parish life.”

That’s a contrast to some modern parishes, where the order of visibility is:
Lay women
Lay men
The pastor
Associated priests

I didn’t hear Pope Francis mention that parishes were where he was encouraging “a greater role” (for women). There are already women operating in the Curia, and elsewhere in the Holy See. Did he mean that? Don’t know. There are women who head up all kinds of religious and lay apostolate activities in the Church already, as well. Also women in decision-making roles in Theology schools, etc.

 

[Godric2]

I believe it is helpful to have gender balance where possible.

In my opinion some of the cases of abuse in organisations have arisen in very male dominated systems.

Cross dressing saints?

 

[edwest2]

Why does anything have to be wrong with the men for the Church to benefit from the (name removed by moderator)ut of women?

That’s like saying: there’s something wrong with mothers so we need dads; rather than, moms and dads complement each other.

Why change things? And I’m not saying any of that. Those aren’t my thoughts on this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

I don’t see men here as being “defensive.” I see those who know the differentiated roles within the Church to be appropriate to the Founder’s own practice (apostleship: few, male; vs. discipleship: all, both sexes).

To all:

“Decision-making,” among modernist Catholics, is always a subtext, and here a text. Secular women always introduce this when discussing “equality,” and even participation: supposedly women have to have “as many” positions of decision-making as men do, and/or women have to be “visible” in “high-profile” and “critical” or “key” spots. (Anything else, of course, is insulting tokenism.) The same goes for those who fancy themselves women’s “advocates.” Same suppositions, same secular model.

The vast majority of modern-style parishes in the States have been almost utterly laicized in their decision-making, and within that, heavily feminized. OTOH, many, if not most, traditionalist-style parishes look and feel very different, and whatever politics exist, are invisible to any layperson because the activity of that parish is singular: to bring souls closer to God, and the responsibility for the leadership in that area is always the pastor’s. There aren’t that many “decisions” to make (probably what Ed was hinting at) because the business of the parish is largely sacramental, devotional, and of prayer, all of which are the pastor’s prerogative to direct and control. There is no inherent “right” to “decision-making” in any of the latter. As to the music, it is largely in Latin, and choirmasters serve at the pleasure of the pastor. In such parishes, lay women and lay men are not making many “decisions,” at least regarding “parish life.”

That’s a contrast to some modern parishes, where the order of visibility is:
Lay women
Lay men
The pastor
Associated priests

I didn’t hear Pope Francis mention that parishes were where he was encouraging “a greater role” (for women). There are already women operating in the Curia, and elsewhere in the Holy See. Did he mean that? Don’t know. There are women who head up all kinds of religious and lay apostolate activities in the Church already, as well. Also women in decision-making roles in Theology schools, etc.

A very good reply. We don’t know what Pope Francis has in mind. Not yet.

Peace,
Ed

 

[johnthebaptist2]

Too all,I think we have talk about this subject long often,we have read may differences about this subject,and now its time we move on,and let the Pope who is the Leader of the Catholic Church decided.We need to focus on keep reading what the Pope saids,for the media is trying to say things about our new Pope that are,t what he,s trying to do,their twisting what he said,s . God help our new Pope Francis…

 

[felsguy]

I don’t see men here as being “defensive.” I see those who know the differentiated roles within the Church to be appropriate to the Founder’s own practice (apostleship: few, male; vs. discipleship: all, both sexes).

To all:

“Decision-making,” among modernist Catholics, is always a subtext, and here a text. Secular women always introduce this when discussing “equality,” and even participation: supposedly women have to have “as many” positions of decision-making as men do, and/or women have to be “visible” in “high-profile” and “critical” or “key” spots. (Anything else, of course, is insulting tokenism.) The same goes for those who fancy themselves women’s “advocates.” Same suppositions, same secular model.

**The vast majority of modern-style parishes in the States have been almost utterly laicized in their decision-making, and within that, heavily feminized. ** OTOH, many, if not most, traditionalist-style parishes look and feel very different, and whatever politics exist, are invisible to any layperson because the activity of that parish is singular: to bring souls closer to God, and the responsibility for the leadership in that area is always the pastor’s. There aren’t that many “decisions” to make (probably what Ed was hinting at) because the business of the parish is largely sacramental, devotional, and of prayer, all of which are the pastor’s prerogative to direct and control. There is no inherent “right” to “decision-making” in any of the latter. As to the music, it is largely in Latin, and choirmasters serve at the pleasure of the pastor. In such parishes, lay women and lay men are not making many “decisions,” at least regarding “parish life.”

That’s a contrast to some modern parishes, where the order of visibility is:
Lay women
Lay men
The pastor
Associated priests

I didn’t hear Pope Francis mention that parishes were where he was encouraging “a greater role” (for women). There are already women operating in the Curia, and elsewhere in the Holy See. Did he mean that? Don’t know. There are women who head up all kinds of religious and lay apostolate activities in the Church already, as well. Also women in decision-making roles in Theology schools, etc.

You seem to be stating this as fact rather than as your opinion. Obviously if it’s your opinion, it’s not arguable. But if it’s meant as factual, I am curious as to what you base it on.

.

 

[livingwordunity]

I believe it is helpful to have gender balance where possible. In my opinion some of the cases of abuse in organisations have arisen in very male dominated systems.

There already is a balance. The Church is the bride, and Jesus is the groom. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the embodiment of the Church, and every Pope is a servant under her. That’s why the Church is called “She”. With our Blessed Mother, Catholics have a Queen of Heaven. Protestants don’t have that. If all that isn’t enough for you what do you think about Jesus (God) only appointing males to make up the twelve apostles? By the way, there are twelve apostles in the New Covenant because God had ordained that there be twelve patriarchs in the Old Covenant, and this is a sign of continuity of salvation history. As a side note, the twelve apostles and twelve patriarchs are the twenty-four elders in Revelation 5:8.

post #227

 

[corsair]

Go into any Diocesan office or parish office and count heads by gender. Or for that matter, attend any OF Mass and do the same.

The ladies virtually run the church already.

 

[triumphguy]

So the general consensus seems to be

a. The church is the bride of Christ,

b. There’s a ton of women in parish ministry already

c. The men are doing fine - especially when women aren’t involved (see parish ministry)

d. Women don’t need more power, and anyway seeking power is just a sneaky way of lobbying for ordination.

Am I accurate?

 

[Cojuanco]

Go into any Diocesan office or parish office and count heads by gender. Or for that matter, attend any OF Mass and do the same.

The ladies virtually run the church already.

But they are hardly given the recognition they so richly deserve, which is the problem. We cannot ordain them, of course, but what has been implicit must be made explicit.

 

[MicheleLMD]

Why do people feel a need for recognition within the Church?

Matthew 20:25-28

But Jesus called them to him and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and that they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. It shall not be so among you: but whosoever is the greater among you, let him be your minister. And he that will be first among you shall be your servant. Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister and to give his life a redemption for many.

A true servant of God will serve in a humble manner. We need to take our cues from the Blessed Mother and from the holy women who have been faithful servants of God. Blessed Mother Teresa, Saint Bernadette, Saint Faustina, Saint Bridgette…

Can you even imagine any of these women wanting the ordination of women? Do you think these women were weak? No their strength endures! It takes strength to be obedient, humble, meek. They carried their crosses and because of their example we know how to behave. Anyone who is pushing these issues does not listen to God but to the secular world. Women already play a substantial role in the Church. Every priest had a mother. Even Pope Francis had a mother.

We had 12 apostles all male. This is God’s template. He set it up this way.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today: and the same for ever.

Malachias 3:6

For I am the Lord, and I change not: and you the sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Exodus 29:4-9, 24, 28-30

And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons to the door of the tabernacle of the testimony. And when thou hast washed the father and his sons with water, Thou shalt clothe Aaron with his vestments, that is, with the linen garment and the tunic, and the ephod and the rational, which thou shalt gird with the girdle. And thou shalt put the mitre upon his head, and the holy plate upon the mitre, And thou shalt pour the oil of unction upon his head: and by this rite shall he be consecrated. Thou shalt bring his sons also, and shalt put on them the linen tunics, and gird them with a girdle: To wit, Aaron and his children, and thou shalt put mitres upon them; and they shall be priests to me by a perpetual ordinance. After thou shalt have consecrated their hands, And thou shalt put all upon the hands of Aaron and of his sons, and shalt sanctify them elevating before the Lord. Wherewith Aaron was consecrated and his sons, and they shall fall to Aaron’s share, and his sons’, by a perpetual right from the children of Israel: because they are the choicest and the beginnings of their peace victims which they offer to the Lord. And the holy vesture, which Aaron shall use, his sons shall have after him, that they may be anointed, and their hands consecrated in it. He of his sons that shall be appointed high priest in his stead, and that shall enter into the tabernacle of the testimony to minister in the sanctuary, shall wear it seven days.

 

[triumphguy]

It’s not about getting praise, it’s about being able to contribute to the best of one’s ability. That’s what people mean by “recognition” in this context.

What if women genuinely have vocations inspired by the Holy Spirit and they are unable to follow their call because the role of women is not recognized and their contributions are discouraged. (AND I"M NOT TALKING ORDINATION SO DON:T GO THERE)

 

[Mike30]

It’s not about getting praise, it’s about being able to contribute to the best of one’s ability. That’s what people mean by “recognition” in this context.

What if women genuinely have vocations inspired by the Holy Spirit and they are unable to follow their call because the role of women is not recognized and their contributions are discouraged. (AND I"M NOT TALKING ORDINATION SO DON:T GO THERE)

Well what are you talking about then? What other Church roles or vocations are denied to women?

 

[MicheleLMD]

It’s not about getting praise, it’s about being able to contribute to the best of one’s ability. That’s what people mean by “recognition” in this context.

What if women genuinely have vocations inspired by the Holy Spirit and they are unable to follow their call because the role of women is not recognized and their contributions are discouraged. (AND I"M NOT TALKING ORDINATION SO DON:T GO THERE)

What exactly do you mean if not ordination? God does not change. Women can devote their lives to God. They become nuns. Mother Angelica founded EWTN. God chose her and gave her a very special and important vocation. If God truly gives a vocation, nothing would stop her. God doesn’t change. We seem to assume He is evolving as our society evolves. It’s pretty clear that society is not evolving we are devolving.

Please give me an example of a women that was called to a vocation that was not possible. I will try to answer if I understand the question.