Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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njlisa said:
To get back to the OP, I’d just say that, whatever the cause, Pope Francis extended a hand of kindness while still upholding the Catechism. That’s clear from the video of the press conference that was posted earlier. 🙂
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It was certainly a wonderful thing that Pope Francis actually used the English word “gay” and said that gay people should not be marginalized, but integrated into society.

That’s huge. He is acknowledging not just a sexual orientation, but a sexual identity. An identity that he, as Pope, feels is not for him to judge.

We would all do well to follow his example!
 
bellasbane said:
It was certainly a wonderful thing that Pope Francis actually used the English word “gay” and said that gay people should not be marginalized, but integrated into society.

That’s huge. He is acknowledging not just a sexual orientation, but a sexual identity. An identity that he, as Pope, feels is not for him to judge.

We would all do well to follow his example!
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We still do not have an accurate record of what exactly was said.
 
An article from Catholic Culture’s Catholic World News:

Pope distinguishes between homosexual orientation, gay lobby
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=18600
Here is Excerpt: The Pope’s remarks-- made during a long and candid exchange with reporters who accompanied him on his return flight to Rome after a visit to Brazil for World Youth Day—were widely interpreted by reporters as an acceptance of homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood. But in fact the Pope’s comments were addressed to different questions.
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The Pope had been answering questions from reporters on two sensitive topics: the reported existence of a “gay lobby” at the Vatican, and reports that the newly appointed prelate of the Vatican bank, Msgr. Battista Ricca, had been involved in past homosexual scandals.
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EmperorNapoleon said:
There is no reason to pick his statements apart. One of the reasons I like Pope Francis is because the man has no qualms about saying what he means. He doesn’t need the Vatican filter to come in after the fact with a “Well what he meant was…” ** Yes, his statement is in stark contrast to that of Benedict on the issue of homosexual clergy and he is right. If God calls someone to the priesthood then who are they to say no on the basis of sexual orientation?**
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No, Pope Francis’s words are not in any contrast to the former Pope’s words. That’s merely wishful thinking on your part.
As to who is to say “no” – no man has an inherent “right” to join the priesthood. There are solid reasons for a bishop to say no for a great many reasons.
Prodigal_Son said:
It does seem like discrimination. We would let murderers be priests, if they were repentant. So what makes homosexuality so dangerous to living a holy and single life? Even “deep-seated” homosexuality?
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Who has told you that murderers are allowed to be priests? This is simply not true. In fact, many if not all dioceses and parishes won’t even hire lay people who have committed felonies.
Also, it’s not merely about the individual man wanting to be ordained. It’s about his fitness to minister, and about the people he is to minister to.

Here are a couple of articles which expound upon the 2005 directive:

Can homosexual men be ordained to the priesthood?
catholicexchange.com/can-homosexual-men-be-ordained-to-the-priesthood/

Vatican reaffirms ban on homosexual seminarianscatholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=58524
 
njlisa said:
Out of sheer exhaustion and lack of anything new to contribute to this discussion, I am unsubscribing to this thread. Happy discussing! :coolinoff:
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Me, too. 👍 Nothing like continuing to beat a dead horse.

We love you Pope Francis !
 
njlisa said:
To get back to the OP, I’d just say that, whatever the cause, Pope Francis extended a hand of kindness while still upholding the Catechism. That’s clear from the video of the press conference that was posted earlier. 🙂
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I’m not sure that the Catechism is complete anyway, it’s a summary. Ordination may not be completely covered in the Catechism. And a hand of kindness has to be all truth. It is clear in the news report that this pope has deviated from the emphasis spoken by all previous popes. All previous popes said an admitted homosexual should not be ordained. Paul in scripture talks of holy orders the same way. The person has to be upright and with a shining history.

Titus 1:6
If any be without crime, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of riot, or unruly. For a bishop must be without crime, as the steward of God: not proud, not subject to anger, not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre: But given to hospitality, gentle, sober, just, holy, continent
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Douay-Rheims Bible
 
What Pope Francis really said about gays – and no, it’s not new

By Fr. Jonathan Morris

Let’s begin with the fact that the pope has always been “OK” with homosexuals. In fact, by the demands of his own religion he is required to be much more than just “OK.” The Christian faith teaches that every person is endowed by God with an inviolable dignity and therefore deserves our unconditional respect and love. …

What Pope Francis really said, in response to a reporter’s question about homosexual priests who are living a celibate life was this: “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

Pope Francis simply and compassionately reiterated Biblical teaching. The Bible and the Catholic Church have never taught that it is a “sin” to be homosexual. They teach it is a sin to have homosexual sex because it goes against the laws of God’s nature, specifically his plan for human sexuality. …

We don’t make judgments about anyone’s personal worth—God has already done that when he created us out of love.

Read more: foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/29/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-gays-and-no-it-not-new/#ixzz2aUQz4BKK
 
fix said:
We still do not have an accurate record of what exactly was said.
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“Se una persona è gay e cerca il Signore con buona volontà, chi sono io per giudicarlo? Il Catechismo della Chiesa cattolica insegna che le persone gay non si devono discriminare, ma si devono accogliere. Catechismo della Chiesa cattolica insegna che le persone gay non si devono discriminare, ma si devono accogliere.”
vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/vaticano/dettaglio-articolo/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/3/

English synonyms for “accogliere”: welcome, receive, accept, admit, grant, allow, agree to, harbor, sustain

He did use the English word “gay” - which is a sexual identity. It is way more than just talking about people with “same sex attractions” as if these attractions were something separate from who they are.
 
Colorad007 said:
I agree with that completely. Whenever I read the NCR and especially those who comment on articles therein, I feel so depressed. They literally rejoice at any perceived unorthodoxy in the Holy Father. I can believe that the folks at the New York Times hate the Pope and the Church he shepherds. But I cannot fathom that so many Catholics actually hate what the Church teaches.
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I wanted to clarify this post because I think that it was pretty uncharitable to the ncr. I ought not question others’ faith like that. How should I know whether they hate the Church? They want to change her teaching in some ways, and that is wrong. But do they really hate the Church? I actually doubt that that is fair. And I apologize for at all intimating that.

I do think that no Catholic should ever want the Church to change her teaching, which won’t happen anyway.
 
Mike_tn said:
I’m not sure that the Catechism is complete anyway, it’s a summary. Ordination may not be completely covered in the Catechism. And a hand of kindness has to be all truth. It is clear in the news report that this pope has deviated from the emphasis spoken by all previous popes. All previous popes said an admitted homosexual should not be ordained. Paul in scripture talks of holy orders the same way. The person has to be upright and with a shining history.
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The passage you quote mentions that they should be “without crime”. But obviously this is not saying without wrongdoing in the past, since Paul himself would be disqualified for that standard. Similarly, Francis speaks of “youthful sins”.

Note that, by your standards, it would appear that Augustine could not be a priest.
 
gilliam said:
“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
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What he actually said was: “Se una persona è gay e cerca il Signore con buona volontà, chi sono io per giudicarlo?”

So the translation should be: “If a person is gay and seeks the Lord with good will, who am I to judge?”

And while he may have been speaking about priests, there is nothing to say he meant to limit it to priests. And while other Church leaders have expressed similar sentiments, such as:

“Some say that the Catholic Church hates people with same-sex attractions. This is not true. In fact, if there are any members of the Church who hate people because of their sexual orientation, they need to go to confession.” - Cardinal Seán
cardinalseansblog.org/2011/06/17/

This is the first time I have heard any Church leader, let alone the Pope, use the word “gay”, except maybe negatively in the context of “gay pride”.
 
Robert_Bay said:
7 things you need to know about what Pope Francis said about gays

Read more: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/7-things-you-need-to-know-about-what-pope-francis-said-about-gays#ixzz2aUWlidmG
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So he did say: "these persons must never be marginalized and “they must be integrated into society.” (“non si devono emarginare queste persone per questo, devono essere integrate in società”) - saltandlighttv.org/blog/world-youth-day/a-note-on-the-popes-remarks-to-journalists-en-route-to-rome

La Stampa left that part out. Come to think of it, I can’t find it anywhere in the English translation of the CCC either. Its wonderful that Pope Francis was able to clarify that for us.

I love the fact that he thinks a “lobby of greed” (“lobby di avari”) is a matter of greater concern than whether or not someone is gay. Puts things into their proper perspective!

Awesome!👍
 
Everything must be read in context…
The Question to Pope Francis from Ilse, a journalist on the Papal flight
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Ilse: I would like to ask permission to pose a rather delicate question. Another image that went around the world is that of Monsignor Ricca and the news about his personal life. I would like to know, your Holiness, what will be done about this question. How should one deal with this question and how does your Holiness wish to deal with the whole question of the gay lobby?
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The Pope’s Answer
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  • Regarding the matter of Monsignor Ricca, I did what Canon Law required and did the required investigation. And from the investigation, we did not find anything corresponding to the accusations against him. We found none of that. That is the answer. But I would like to add one more thing to this: I see that so many times in the Church, apart from this case and also in this case, one looks for the “sins of youth,” for example, is it not thus?, And then these things are published. These things are not crimes. The crimes are something else: child abuse is a crime. But sins, if a person, or secular priest or a nun, has committed a sin and then that person experienced conversion, the Lord forgives and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets and this is very important for our lives.* When we go to confession and we truly say “I have sinned in this matter,” the Lord forgets and we do not have the right to not forget because we run the risk that the Lord will not forget our sins, eh? This is a danger. This is what is important: a theology of sin. So many times I think of St. Peter: he committed one of the worst sins denying Christ. And with this sin they made him Pope. We must think about fact often.
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Code: 
But returning to your question more concretely: in this case [Ricca] I did the required investigation and we found nothing.  That is the first question.  Then you spoke of the gay lobby.  Agh… so much is written about the gay lobby.  I have yet to find on a Vatican identity card the word gay.  They say there are some gay people here.  I think that when we encounter a gay person, we must make the distinction between the fact of a person being gay and the fact of a lobby, because lobbies are not good.  They are bad.  If a person is gay **and seeks the Lord and has good will**, who am I to judge that person?  The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this point beautifully but says, wait a moment, how does it say, it says, these persons must never be marginalized and “they must be integrated into society.”
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Code: 
The problem is not that one has this tendency; no, we must be brothers, this is the first matter.  There is another problem, another one: the problem is to form a lobby of those who have this tendency, a lobby of the greedy people, a lobby of politicians, a lobby of Masons, so many lobbies.  This is the most serious problem for me. And thank you so much for doing this question. Thank you very much!
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source: saltandlighttv.org/blog/world-youth-day/a-note-on-the-popes-remarks-to-journalists-en-route-to-rome
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I thank God Pope Francis also reaffirms the Catechism in his answer.

For those who are interested, please see two of my earlier posts in another topic concerning entries 2357-2359 of the CCC. Everything must be read in context in order to truly understand the subject of homosexuality as mentioned in church teaching.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10827149&postcount=28

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10827201&postcount=29

With that said, the CCC is not numbered for the purpose of cherry picking through it’s content. The section marked Chastity and Homosexuality follows and is meant to be read in the context of the preceding section Offenses against chastity. Both sections are only sub-sections of II. THE VOCATION TO CHASTITY, which must be read in it’s entirety in order to fully understand the teaching contained within the CCC.

I am deeply saddened every time the news media and people on the internet attempt to twist the words of the pontiff for political motives. How sad there are so many arguments over church teaching, which is so clear and available to those who have the time to read and study it. It has become quite obvious that what the Pope says about lobbies being a problem is true.

With that said, Pope Francis has once again reaffirmed Church teaching, and nothing about it has changed.

I’ve made my post for this month. I’ll go back to lurking now.

@Robert Bay - Thank You for your last post and attempting to keep the topic in it’s correct perspective. 🙂
 
As I posted in a different topic…
fix said:
The basic thrust of your point I think is well intended. I would say that many blogs will be hammering out your point in many differing ways. It is a type of problem with no easy solutions. Even the last Pope had the same issues. The condom comment is a perfect example. He said what he said and you had 20 different orthodox sources all claiming to know what he really said and intended. Some contradicting others. The same will happen here and probably more into the future. You have instant access to communication. You have sources that are often biased. You have different people hearing different things. And you have the para experts claiming to inform you what he “really” said and intended.

What is the solution to this confusion? Read actual Church sources I guess.
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The problem is most people are not reading Church documents.

Topics as weighty as the Church’s stance on homosexuality should not be addressed with two line snippets. As a world leader, the Pope needs to be aware of how his supporters and enemies hang on every word. He didn’t clearly state Catholic teaching with any specificity that IMO does a service to those listening. He did not actually (that I saw) mention the Church’s teachings on homosexuality, even though that was the topic at hand. That, coupled with his recent appointment of Monsignor Ricca the Prelate of the Vatican Bank (apparently not being aware of Ricca’s ongoing encounters (breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/07/21/Francis-Gay-Scandal)) send the wrong message. Many people who live in sin believe they seek God and are doing His will. People who skip Mass do so because they believe it isn’t a big deal. People who use contraception do so because they believe it isn’t a big deal. They don’t do it to throw it in God’s face; in many cases, they simply do it and believe He still loves them. Which, of course He does, but that is not a synonym for “you don’t have to stop what you are doing.”

Like it or not, the impression of what is said is as important as what is being said. Different Popes have different styles, and some are better at certain areas than others. Time will tell with Pope Francis what His unique gifts are, but I think in this case, he didn’t help clarify anything, but may have muddled the issue for many people.
 
Julian_Bashir said:
As I posted in a different topic…

The problem is most people are not reading Church documents.

Topics as weighty as the Church’s stance on homosexuality should not be addressed with two line snippets. As a world leader, the Pope needs to be aware of how his supporters and enemies hang on every word. He didn’t clearly state Catholic teaching with any specificity that IMO does a service to those listening. He did not actually (that I saw) mention the Church’s teachings on homosexuality, even though that was the topic at hand. That, coupled with his recent appointment of Monsignor Ricca the Prelate of the Vatican Bank (apparently not being aware of Ricca’s ongoing encounters (breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/07/21/Francis-Gay-Scandal)) send the wrong message. Many people who live in sin believe they seek God and are doing His will. People who skip Mass do so because they believe it isn’t a big deal. People who use contraception do so because they believe it isn’t a big deal. They don’t do it to throw it in God’s face; in many cases, they simply do it and believe He still loves them. Which, of course He does, but that is not a synonym for “you don’t have to stop what you are doing.”

Like it or not, the impression of what is said is as important as what is being said. Different Popes have different styles, and some are better at certain areas than others. Time will tell with Pope Francis what His unique gifts are, but I think in this case, he didn’t help clarify anything, but may have muddled the issue for many people.
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I think we are living in a culture that is increasingly illiterate and one that has attention deficit disorder. It seems that most people only read the headline and then move on. That makes them highly vulnerable to being manipulated by media spin and propaganda.
 
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