Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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Elizabeth502 said:
And nothing in Church doctrine technically forbids others from spilling all of their secrets in possibly inappropriate settings (or without prompt) either, such as “sharing” that they have been adulterers, addicted to porn, have had an abortion or funded one, are a recovering alcoholic or drug addict, were guilty once of Grand Theft, have committed sacrilege (of the sacraments) repeatedly, or once cohabited for a period of time before marriage. And ditto for the temptations (attractions) to do any of that, if such persons were or are afflicted with such disordered temptations. Not unless the circumstances make such a revelation helpful (charitable) to others.

However, in Church spirituality (what is also contained in the Catechism), Catholic Christianity requires us, in the striving of all of us toward sainthood, to focus always on the benefit to the other person, as opposed to the scandal, confusion, or discomfort of others. And that most often involves the Christian virtue of prudence, and the consideration of discretion.

OTOH, our modern age offers abundant opportunities to ‘let it all hang out’ in appropriate venues, such as support groups --including lay ministries – Courage, various Recovery groups within parishes (addictions, abortions), sponsored by that parish, diocese, or approved Catholic groups. Etc.

My closest friends might benefit from my most personal secrets, but not new acquaintances in a parish setting. There are different levels of acquaintanceship and friendship, not all of them equally intimate and revealing, but all of them requiring not only the consideration of our own needs but also those of the other.
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Uh, who’s letting everything spill out? Was anyone trying to make a grand pomp and circumstance telling everyone of their orientation?

Why is the gay orientation some shameful secret? I choose not to act on it. My conscience is not seared one bit. How do I hurt the other person if they’re aware of my orientation? Again, I’m not introducing myself as a gay person, but if the situation arises that requires clarification, I will give it.

You make it sound as though we’re trying to hang a rainbow flag and throw sparkly confetti in parishes everywhere.
 
EIF5A said:
Uh, who’s letting everything spill out? Was anyone trying to make a grand pomp and circumstance telling everyone of their orientation?

Why is the gay orientation some shameful secret? I choose not to act on it. My conscience is not seared one bit. How do I hurt the other person if they’re aware of my orientation? Again, I’m not introducing myself as a gay person, but if the situation arises that requires clarification, I will give it.

You make it sound as though we’re trying to hang a rainbow flag and throw sparkly confetti in parishes everywhere.
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Anyone who has read Elizabeth’s post knows that the above interpretation is a gross mischaracterization of her words.

The information provided by fili dei answers the above questions, especially in regard to
the dissemination of misinformation regarding identity and the supposed benignity of the condition “as long as it’s not acted upon”.

In the Christian life, we struggle against temptations of all sorts, and through the saving life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we can overcome many difficulties, maybe not overnight, but with Christ all things are possible. We are not to label ourselves or others in such a way that the label becomes part of our permanent identity (such as “I’m a gay Catholic”). That implies a certain acceptance of a philosophy that says “God made me this way, and He cannot/need not release me from these temptations.” We are children of God, and male and female. That is sufficient labeling.

Addiction to entertaining the idea of any sin/temptation is totally within the ability of Amighty God to heal. It’s good not to “act” on the temptation, but don’t stop there! The orientation, as pointed out in the information by fili dei, is not “neutral” (in the sense that, as long as it’s not acted upon, everything’s A-okay).

As is evident throughout the thread, no one is suggesting that a person with this difficulty should not be able to discuss it with others in an appropriate setting. The same goes for other sexual sins or personal difficulties. One of the problems with insisting that it be acceptable to relate this in more venues than provided is the fact (as fili dei pointed out) we become somewhat desensitized to it, and some begin to have the understanding that it is a normal condition, a choice that’s out there for living the Christian life (as long as it’s “not acted upon”). But the issue is not as benign as that., and it can cause much confusion among the faithful.

Also, wherever there are children and young people, there is the issue of corruption of minors. Although the information may not be aimed at them directly, they very often get things filtered down to them. This is one of the most grievous aspects of the whole thing.
 
opus101 said:
So you want our Catholic culture to avoid offering confession? You want our Catholic culture to prohibit people with SSA from attending support groups and prayer groups? You want Catholics with SSA to be barred from spiritual direction, sacraments and psychological counseling? Because it’s the preponderance and legitimacy of such things that we’ve been talking about on this thread. How is it that this gives a bad impression?
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I do not want our Catholic culture to stop offering any of the things you’ve suggested. I have not once argued against any of those things in this thread. The things I have argued against are plain to any who read my posts. 🙂

I also want to reiterate that whatever it looks like, I have never been trying to make this post personal or about me; if that’s what you’ve read into any of my posts, you’re misreading them. Simple as that.

As for the rest of your arguments in a later post, we’ve been over all that. I am not just dismissing your arguments out of hand, I’ve never just said “They’re not good enough,” I’ve always tried to explain why I disagree rather than just dismiss them with no reason. This includes even the arguments about corruption of minors, people not being equipped, etc., etc. I’ve not dismissed any of these out of hand without even explaining why I disagree with the points being made.

To recap, I must make it known that I simply stand with Pope Francis, as I’m sure everyone here is trying to do in their own way: I’ve merely advocated a charitable and nonjudgmental attitude toward people who bear this cross, whether you find out about it in a personal OR public setting, I’ve advocated making steps toward a Catholic Culture in which people who bear this cross have more tangible reasons to feel confident that they can expect such charity and lack of judgment if people find out about their SSA.

And yet I too am a “son of the Church” and totally agree with everything the Church teaches about acting on SSA being a sin, and a grave one at that. I’ve never denied that. I haven’t denied that having SSA is far short of an ideal condition (most of us with SSA, remember, are not exactly glad that we have it, some of us, myself included, have prayed and tried to make it go away, but it seems that for the overwhelming majority of people with SSA God responds “My Grace is sufficient to thee” and does not choose to remove this thorn from our flesh), and I haven’t implied that it should be treated as something to celebrate. And I do assume in good faith that most people on both sides of this thread stand with the Pope and the Church even if the different sides may disagree on what shape that will take in the specifics.

Anyway, I think this thread has definitely gotten to the point where we’re all somehow talking past each other. I feel like certain points I’ve made have not even been heard or addressed, and I’m sure that people on the other side of the debate feel the same way. And at times both sides have thought the other was making the thread too personal. It’s probably time that I bow out.

Thanks to everyone here for your time. 🙂
 
For the sake of all the children, young people and all who strive for purity and chastity according to their state in life (no matter what their current ‘orientation’ is), I offer the following quotes from various saints:chastity.com/research/saint-quotes/purity/purity

For the sake of the children and the fulfillment of the command to love one another, may we all look upon one another through the eyes of God. May God heal us of our infirmities and help us along the road to eternal life with Him. Through His grace, may we seek more to love, than to be loved; to give rather than receive, to desire to console more than to be consoled, to desire to understand others more than to be understood…

May God grant us all His salvation, through Christ Our Lord. Amen.
 
gracepoole said:
On several occasions over the past year, I’ve read posts by others here at CAF who described gays and lesbians as “demonic.” It may be that these posters meant to describe gays and lesbians who engage in homosexual acts and not those with “SSA” (a term I’ve seriously never heard anywhere but here) – but this kind of hyperbolic language stings and it’s definitely not welcoming.
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Even gay people engaging in sex should not be called such over the top names. Francis’ words will hopefully get everyone to step back a bit and engage each other on a mature level. I know that if I will be using the Pope’s words if I feel that someone’s rhetoric is out of line.
 
gracepoole said:
On several occasions over the past year, I’ve read posts by others here at CAF who described gays and lesbians as “demonic.” It may be that these posters meant to describe gays and lesbians who engage in homosexual acts and not those with “SSA” (a term I’ve seriously never heard anywhere but here) – but this kind of hyperbolic language stings and it’s definitely not welcoming.
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Since those posts stand out in your memory, you should be able to cite or refer to them easily. Would you do that so readers can decide for themselves? I have been reading threads as you have been and my reading was that the postings said the temptations to engage in homosexual acts are demonic in origin, and not describing the tempted himself or herself as demonic.

If you are correct, indeed such statements would sting and have an unwelcoming effect on those who carry the burden of homosexuality. If not, you are exaggerating with your overreading and conclusion.
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Since those posts stand out in your memory, you should be able to cite or refer to them easily. Would you do that so readers can decide for themselves? I have been reading threads as you have been and my reading was that the postings said the temptations to engage in homosexual acts are demonic in origin, and not describing the tempted himself or herself as demonic.

If you are correct, indeed such statements would sting and have an unwelcoming effect on those who carry the burden of homosexuality. If not, you are exaggerating with your overreading and conclusion.
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CAF is equipped with a search feature – have at it.
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Since those posts stand out in your memory, you should be able to cite or refer to them easily. Would you do that so readers can decide for themselves? I have been reading threads as you have been and my reading was that the postings said the temptations to engage in homosexual acts are demonic in origin, and not describing the tempted himself or herself as demonic.

If you are correct, indeed such statements would sting and have an unwelcoming effect on those who carry the burden of homosexuality. If not, you are exaggerating with your overreading and conclusion.
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I just did a search myself, and found nothing. There are no thread titles that have to do with homosexuals/gays being “demonic”. It would take forever and a day to go through each post.

** For someone to say that “gays” could be under the influence of demonic forces is not at odds with reality. That goes for all people, not just those who experience same-sex sexual temptations.
 
gracepoole said:
CAF is equipped with a search feature – have at it.
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It was you who brought it up so it falls on you to substantiate your claim.

The forum is rife with provocateurs, old and new members from various agnostics, atheists, and self identified religious affiliations including baptized Catholics who do not believe much less follow teachings on morality. I am not saying you necessarily fall in one of the mentioned categories.

However, your saying you came across posts by others here at CAF who described gays and lesbians as “demonic” but you are not prepared to point to an example or show any such posting is irresponsible, in my view. You are fanning the flames of further misunderstanding, and deepening the resentment by those with homosexual inclination or practice against Catholics. I am not referring to faux Catholics. At the least, you would be guilty of hyperbole yourself.
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InSearchofGrace said:
It was you who brought it up so it falls on you to substantiate your claim.

The forum is rife with provocateurs, old and new members from various agnostics, atheists, and self identified religious affiliations including baptized Catholics who do not believe much less follow teachings on morality. I am not saying you necessarily fall in one of the mentioned categories.

However, your saying you came across posts by others here at CAF who described gays and lesbians as “demonic” but you are not prepared to point to an example or show any such posting is irresponsible, in my view. You are fanning the flames of further misunderstanding, and deepening the resentment by those with homosexual inclination or practice against Catholics. I am not referring to faux Catholics. At the least, you would be guilty of hyperbole yourself.
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Post #710 is right up your alley.
 
gracepoole said:
I gave you the option to disregard my post – no clue why that’s a non-response.
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Why, of course, a claim that remains unsubstantiated need only be disregarded, not just by me, but by others who read such as well.
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There is no need to play the victim.

The focus of the thread is “not judging others”.

An aggressive accusation was made that CAF members have called gays “demonic”, and you have failed to produce evidence of this or to offer the possibility that you may have been mistaken. This was followed by passive and dismissive comments that constitute baiting.

The unsubstantiated accusation that you made can contribute to a false view of CAF and cause others to make false judgements about Catholic views on homosexuality.
 
opus101 said:
There is no need to play the victim.

The focus of the thread is “not judging others”.

An aggressive accusation was made that CAF members have called gays “demonic”, and you have failed to produce evidence of this or to offer the possibility that you may have been mistaken. This was followed by passive and dismissive comments that constitute baiting.

The unsubstantiated accusation that you made can contribute to a false view of CAF and cause others to make false judgements about Catholic views on homosexuality.
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Aggressive? I summarized what I’d seen and even generously qualified that it might not have referred to all gays and lesbians. I simply pointed out that such language isn’t welcoming. Why this is particularly disturbing escapes me. The general point is in support of Pope Francis’ comments. My subsequent comments are not passive (I assume passive-aggressive?) or dismissive. They reveal confusion – confusion about why there is this much controversy over the point that referring to gays and lesbians as demonic is unhelpful. Yes, I stand by my comments regarding what I’ve witnessed here. These comments were in response to a poster who said he/she has never encountered a Catholic who has an uncharitable attitude toward gays and lesbians. I did not claim that these were the only perspectives I’ve read about this subject on CAF. I don’t have the time or inclination to search threads to locate these examples, and so I acknowledged I’m unwilling/unable to provide evidence. I’ve baited no one. That’s a scurrilous and incorrect assumption. I’ve shared my personal experience. Big difference. Seems like folks are itching for a fight here. Bah – no thanks.
 
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