Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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As far as the OP is concerned, I really think that defining terms is so very important.
The term “gay”, while having a very specific meaning to those involved in the homosexual movement, can mean something else to others.

It was hard to understand what the Holy Father meant until he continued on and mentioned the Catechism and the fact that his views are those of the Church.

Another problem we run into is poor translations.

Can we soon call it day with this thread?
 
As far as the OP is concerned, I really think that defining terms is so very important.
The term “gay”, while having a very specific meaning to those involved in the homosexual movement, can mean something else to others.

It was hard to understand what the Holy Father meant until he continued on and mentioned the Catechism and the fact that his views are those of the Church.

Another problem we run into is poor translations.

Can we soon call it day with this thread?
Just 278 posts to go… :frighten: 😛
 
Seems like folks are itching for a fight here. Bah – no thanks.
I don’t think she (or I) was itching for a fight, more like “felt provoked”.

Hopefully this is all a misunderstanding.

Peace to all.

Praised be Jesus Christ!
and Viva il Papa!

Happy August to all, and to all a good night! (in this part of the world:). Good day to everyone else).

277 bottles of beer on the wall…:harp:
 
I don’t think she (or I) was itching for a fight, more like “felt provoked”.

Hopefully this is all a misunderstanding.

Peace to all.

Praised be Jesus Christ!
and Viva il Papa!

Happy August to all, and to all a good night! (in this part of the world:). Good day to everyone else).
Pax vobis!
 
An aggressive accusation was made that CAF members have called gays “demonic”, and you have failed to produce evidence of this or to offer the possibility that you may have been mistaken. This was followed by passive and dismissive comments that constitute baiting.

The unsubstantiated accusation that you made can contribute to a false view of CAF and cause others to make false judgements about Catholic views on homosexuality.
I have called so-called “same-sex marriage” a doctrine of demons because it goes directly against God’s will. It is a criticism of sin but not a criticism of every homosexual since I’m assuming that there are some homosexuals who do their best to struggle with SSA and accept the Church’s teaching about it. Whoever encourages the behavior in others, whether it be a homosexual or a heterosexual telling others that it’s good, is guilty of scandal which is the worst of all sins. And there are many heterosexuals who encourage others in their homosexual behavior.
 
Hello… I’m going to help **Grace **out on finding some intolerant views on gay people expressed in this forum. See the following thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=788137

The poster in question was luckily banned but I remember being so upset by it that I reported it to the moderators. This is how some of our fellow Catholics view gay people. Alan Keyes considers himself a devout Catholic and he threw his teenage daughter out onto the street because she said she was a lesbian. The Catechism considers parents who do that as being sinful but Keyes considers himself a great moral paragon for doing so. In reality, I think that upsets Pope Francis more (much more) than any sexual act. Who am I to judge will hopefully help such people moderate their views? Either that or please leave the Catholic Church and go hang out with Mel Gibson and his anti-Semitic friends.
 
Hello… I’m going to help **Grace **out on finding some intolerant views on gay people expressed in this forum. See the following thread. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=788137

The poster in question was luckily banned but I remember being so upset by it that I reported it to the moderators. This is how some of our fellow Catholics view gay people. Alan Keyes considers himself a devout Catholic and he threw his teenage daughter out onto the street because she said she was a lesbian. The Catechism considers parents who do that as being sinful but Keyes considers himself a great moral paragon for doing so. In reality, I think that upsets Pope Francis more (much more) than any sexual act. Who am I to judge will hopefully help such people moderate their views? Either that or please leave the Catholic Church and go hang out with Mel Gibson and his anti-Semitic friends.
Do you realize that you are judging people?
 
“Homosexual people = demonic” not being Catholic teaching, this theory is nowadays professed only by crazy sedevacantist sects like MHFM.

But, indeed, there were some… memorable threads and comments on CAF. Happily, most posters see only humans where others see demon-possessed creatures.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579844
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=689939
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=612834
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=49926&page=3
 
It was you who brought it up so it falls on you to substantiate your claim.

The forum is rife with provocateurs, old and new members from various agnostics, atheists, and self identified religious affiliations including baptized Catholics who do not believe much less follow teachings on morality. I am not saying you necessarily fall in one of the mentioned categories.

However, your saying you came across posts by others here at CAF who described gays and lesbians as “demonic” but you are not prepared to point to an example or show any such posting is irresponsible, in my view. You are fanning the flames of further misunderstanding, and deepening the resentment by those with homosexual inclination or practice against Catholics. I am not referring to faux Catholics. At the least, you would be guilty of hyperbole yourself.
,
She might be right about the demonic reference but as you said, we have all sorts of people on CAF. The view of one, two or three does not reflect the view of all. The fact is, most people here simply rightly condemn the practice of homosexuality. However, we all do it differently and the reception is also different.

For me, whenever I feel like we are being attacked because of our Catholic position, whenever Catholics are being persecuted for exercising their freedom of conscience, I tend to be very defensive and take a very tough position. We get attacked a lot from some Catholics and others on this forum. I personally do not hesitate to fight back and in so doing, I use the language I believe is appropriate for the encounter. So the language people use also depends on the situation. I will not debate with a gay activitist in the same way as I would debate with let’s just go with the term a “celibate gay”.
I have listened to some of the critics and I personally will endeavour to always make it clear when directing my posts towards militants and lobbies so that those who do not disagree with Church teaching and persecute or support the persecution of Christians shouldn’t feel targeted.

A gay person on this forum once told me this:
Nota bene - referring to gay people as “gays” or “the gays” is offensive to them and their allies and so there’s no need to use them when there’s a number of non-offensive terms you can use.
I told him that I didn’t know that, because it is a term other gay people use. Just like in “gays and lesbians”. So I never would have imagined that the word “gays” could be offensive.

Based on that, it seems like, no matter what we say and how we say it, it is still likely that someone would still be offended. That is why I like to quote Santi2
You are in a Catholic forum and plenty of what is discussed here will offend you. So, you’ll have to have a broad back as I am not the only Catholic member who holds that same-sex union is not, and will never be, on equal footing with heterosexual marriages. Regardless of what contemporary law dictates. For all the reasons that various posters with same view have already stated in regard thereto.
The mere fact that we disagree with the so called “same-sex marriage” is offensive to some people (and we have all sorts of people on this forum). So it is not always about the language. As long as we do not accept homosexuality, some people will always be offended! We need to get used to that.

gracepoole believes or used to believe that, we, Catholics, do not acknowledge that homosexuals get assaulted. She started a thread about a gay man who was assaulted to prove her point. She thinks or thought that we do not condemn such attacks. BTW, it turned out that the person in question wasn’t attacked because he was gay, but rather, it was a drug related crime and the person just happened to be a drug dealer (who was gay) and some were trying to spin the story.

What I mean is, if she believes that we deny the fact that people get attacked because of their sexual orientation and do not condemn such attacks, then…what can we say? 🤷
 
“Homosexual people = demonic” not being Catholic teaching, this theory is nowadays professed only by crazy sedevacantist sects like MHFM.

But, indeed, there were some… memorable threads and comments on CAF. Happily, most posters see only humans where others see demon-possessed creatures.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579844
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=689939
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=612834
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=49926&page=3
Interesting reading… How scary what people believe…even more scary to be ssa and try to live as a catholic :imsorry:
 
Paul’s letter to the Roman’s has some good background for the Pope’s statement and his pastoral methods, and for the general discussion here about how we should treat each other, and why.

Romans 1, 18-32 detailing various sins, and then,

turning the tone of his address on it’s head to include the common sinfulness of every person(“who am I** to judge”)**:

Romans 2
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that **God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

**
And Romans 3
Contrasting our common heritage as sinners with redemption through the person of Jesus Christ, the one who did not come to condemn but save.
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”**
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.**
 
Aggressive? I summarized what I’d seen and even generously qualified that it might not have referred to all gays and lesbians. I simply pointed out that such language isn’t welcoming. Why this is particularly disturbing escapes me. The general point is in support of Pope Francis’ comments. My subsequent comments are not passive (I assume passive-aggressive?) or dismissive. They reveal confusion – confusion about why there is this much controversy over the point that referring to gays and lesbians as demonic is unhelpful. Yes, I stand by my comments regarding what I’ve witnessed here. These comments were in response to a poster who said he/she has never encountered a Catholic who has an uncharitable attitude toward gays and lesbians. I did not claim that these were the only perspectives I’ve read about this subject on CAF. I don’t have the time or inclination to search threads to locate these examples, and so I acknowledged I’m unwilling/unable to provide evidence. I’ve baited no one. That’s a scurrilous and incorrect assumption. I’ve shared my personal experience. Big difference. Seems like folks are itching for a fight here. Bah – no thanks.
But I could very well say that Catholics who support the Church’s teaching on homosexuality are demonic, and that would be unhelpful too. And if I didn’t have anything to show that anyone actually said that, it would bother people. Obviously, you can see that, correct?

I don’t doubt crazy things have been said. I have read extremely unhelpful comments from self-professed Catholics who ignore Church teaching on this and a myriad of other issues, and it was unhelpful as well. Catholics who clearly don’t know what they are talking about, or simply think they know better than the Church when it comes to abortion, the legitimacy of changing marriage, and more. All unhelpful, and confusing to see Catholics not united.

Using anecdotal examples that pop up once every few years from Catholic Answers doesn’t really establish much of a precedent for it being a prevailing Catholic problem, IMO. 🤷
 
Some people are so obstinate and annoying. He’s the Pope. He can’t err in faith and morals. His belief on gay marriage is the same as what is written in the Catechism.
But you see, his words have created too great an opportunity for some to pass up. That would apply to those homosexuals who wish the Church to change her teaching and others sympathetic to them. It would be those who cling to the “who am I to judge” portion of his words while completely disregarding his statement, “I am a son of the Church.” You see what is happening in this thread. Those who would defend Christianity and revealed objective truth are just going to have to endure the constant barrage of accusations of judgment and intolerance. You see to them, compassion and charity are purely sentiment and there can be no occasion to be truly loving which would bring them into God’s truth and happiness, not suffering.
 
But you see, his words have created too great an opportunity for some to pass up. That would apply to those homosexuals who wish the Church to change her teaching and others sympathetic to them. It would be those who cling to the “who am I to judge” portion of his words while completely disregarding his statement, “I am a son of the Church.” You see what is happening in this thread. Those who would defend Christianity and revealed objective truth are just going to have to endure the constant barrage of accusations of judgment and intolerance. You see to them, compassion and charity are purely sentiment and there can be no occasion to be truly loving which would bring them into God’s truth and happiness, not suffering.
Tigg,

I too am defending Christianity and revealed objective truth. I do not see any major participant in this thread who is promoting heterodoxy. Do you? If so, can you tell me the precise claim that anyone here is espousing that the Church has proclaimed to be heretical?

When you make a comment like the above, you are implying that people like me are willfully and intentionally flouting Church teaching. This is simply false. If I am wrong about Church teaching, I am interested in being educated.

Blessings,
Prodigal
 
But you see, his words have created too great an opportunity for some to pass up. That would apply to those homosexuals who wish the Church to change her teaching and others sympathetic to them. It would be those who cling to the “who am I to judge” portion of his words while completely disregarding his statement, “I am a son of the Church.” You see what is happening in this thread. Those who would defend Christianity and revealed objective truth are just going to have to endure the constant barrage of accusations of judgment and intolerance. You see to them, compassion and charity are purely sentiment and there can be no occasion to be truly loving which would bring them into God’s truth and happiness, not suffering.
It would be helpful if you could address specific posts or points.
In general, your assertion here mischaracterizes, or misunderstands, (not sure which), those of us who are discussing his statements. I haven’t seen anyone who has confused his “son of the Church” statement with his other statements.
What specifically are you referring to?
 
gracepoole believes or used to believe that, we, Catholics, do not acknowledge that homosexuals get assaulted. She started a thread about a gay man who was assaulted to prove her point. She thinks or thought that we do not condemn such attacks. BTW, it turned out that the person in question wasn’t attacked because he was gay, but rather, it was a drug related crime and the person just happened to be a drug dealer (who was gay) and some were trying to spin the story.

What I mean is, if she believes that we deny the fact that people get attacked because of their sexual orientation and do not condemn such attacks, then…what can we say? 🤷
Respectfully, you don’t know me or my motivation for sharing news articles. Please stop assuming you do. I did not claim that “we do not condemn such attacks.” This is a definite mischaracterization.

And I was present when another poster chastised you for referring to “the gays.” Unless you comfortably describe “the blacks,” for example, I would encourage you to drop the definite article. It’s unnecessary and it leads people to think you’re describing a non-human group is a pejorative way.
But I could very well say that Catholics who support the Church’s teaching on homosexuality are demonic, and that would be unhelpful too. And if I didn’t have anything to show that anyone actually said that, it would bother people. Obviously, you can see that, correct?

I don’t doubt crazy things have been said. I have read extremely unhelpful comments from self-professed Catholics who ignore Church teaching on this and a myriad of other issues, and it was unhelpful as well. Catholics who clearly don’t know what they are talking about, or simply think they know better than the Church when it comes to abortion, the legitimacy of changing marriage, and more. All unhelpful, and confusing to see Catholics not united.

Using anecdotal examples that pop up once every few years from Catholic Answers doesn’t really establish much of a precedent for it being a prevailing Catholic problem, IMO. 🤷
Maybe you missed this portion of my earlier post?
These comments were in response to a poster who said he/she has **never **encountered a Catholic who has an uncharitable attitude toward gays and lesbians. I did not claim that these were the only perspectives I’ve read about this subject on CAF.
I was not generalizing about all Catholics here. I was not trying to identify a “precedent.” I was noting that unlike the poster to whom I was responding, I have come across uncharitable Catholics. It’s just that simple.
 
“Homosexual people = demonic” not being Catholic teaching, this theory is nowadays professed only by crazy sedevacantist sects like MHFM.

But, indeed, there were some… memorable threads and comments on CAF. Happily, most posters see only humans where others see demon-possessed creatures.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=579844
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=689939
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=612834
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=49926&page=3
Indeed. Scary stuff, that. You’re right – I have read some remarkably charitable, loving Catholic responses to homosexuals and homosexuality here. Most heartening in the face of this ugliness.
 
But you see, his words have created too great an opportunity for some to pass up. That would apply to those homosexuals who wish the Church to change her teaching and others sympathetic to them. It would be those who cling to the “who am I to judge” portion of his words while completely disregarding his statement, “I am a son of the Church.” You see what is happening in this thread. Those who would defend Christianity and revealed objective truth are just going to have to endure the constant barrage of accusations of judgment and intolerance. You see to them, compassion and charity are purely sentiment and there can be no occasion to be truly loving which would bring them into God’s truth and happiness, not suffering.
Quite frankly I think that there are also some people who cling too much to the “I am a son of the Church” statement and disregard the “who am I to judge” statement.

Follow the example and take the statements by the Holy Father in totality. We must cling both to the truth and to compassion. We must remain steadfast in our doctrine and in our desire to be peaceable to all. We must be the first to “dine with sinners” while at the same time not committing those sins ourselves. We must never condone sin while at the same time never failing to meet others where they are and show them love.

Clinging to one part of the statement or the other is a sign that one is not willing to live out Christ’s example in total, just in the parts that make one feel comfortable. Some are quite comfortable with showing compassionate sentiment but uncomfortable in standing for truth. Others are comfortable in standing for truth but find showing genuine compassion and sentiment to be “icky” or a sign of wishy-washiness. We must do both. All of us must follow Christ’s example in total.
 
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