Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[Elizabeth502]

Pope Francis cannot condemn the sin of homosexual acts to a higher degree than other sins of a sexual nature; fornication and adultery. They, too, are an abomination !

Unfortunately, yours is a common misunderstanding. Sin is not merely divided into “mortal” and “venial.” Within serious sin (for example, serious sins that fall into the sexual category which you just named), there are indeed greater and lesser.

Fornication violates God’s design for order (covenantal marriage)
Adultery goes one step further because it breaks that existing covenant, grievously wounding the spouse and violating the marriage vows, as well as offending God, as well as bringing in a third person.

However, the sexual acts committed above are not in themselves intrinsically evil; it is their circumstances and conditions which make them grave matter.

In the case of homosexual acts, the acts themselves are intrinsically evil, regardless of circumstance, and regardless of stated “love” for the other, and regardless of any faux legalized arrangement.

There are indeed gradations of sin. This has been explained well by apologist and moral theologian Colin Donovan, who got his degree at the Angelicum in Rome, and who has discussed degrees of sin several times on his own shows.

 

[MyMy123]

Unfortunately, yours is a common misunderstanding. Sin is not merely divided into “mortal” and “venial.” Within serious sin (for example, serious sins that fall into the sexual category which you just named), there are indeed greater and lesser.

Fornication violates God’s design for order (covenantal marriage)
Adultery goes one step further because it breaks that existing covenant, grievously wounding the spouse and violating the marriage vows, as well as offending God, as well as bringing in a third person.

However, the sexual acts committed above are not in themselves intrinsically evil; it is their circumstances and conditions which make them grave matter.

In the case of homosexual acts, the acts themselves are intrinsically evil, regardless of circumstance, and regardless of stated “love” for the other, and regardless of any faux legalized arrangement.

There are indeed gradations of sin. This has been explained well by apologist and moral theologian Colin Donovan, who got his degree at the Angelicum in Rome, and who has discussed degrees of sin several times on his own shows.

 

[Vouthon]

And the right wing must accept that that the pope is Catholic too.

I think the Holy Father is going to challenge us all. And rightly so.

Amen Triumph

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Well it does not matter if the sacrifice is real. The issue here is whether it is an objectively good end that is sacrificed or some subjective desire. With gay priests its the latter.

Also, giving up just any objective good is not qualification to be a priest as well. It has to be the giving up of the objective end of a human being (to have a family and reproduce) that is given up for the sake of God’s kingdom (a greater end).

So you think that gay people don’t want to have families and reproduce? In my experience talking with Catholic men with same-sex attraction, pretty much every one recognizes the goodness of marriage and family and desires that good. So they would really be sacrificing that objective good, but they are also sacrificing other, subjective goods.

 

[april32010]

It does when one is considering the priesthood.

The priesthood, at it’s nature’ is sacrificial. It involves sacrifice.

When a heterosexual priest gives up the Natural Good of marriage for the sake of the priesthood, that is a sacrifice. Something Good is given up to in exchange for a life of service to others.

In the case of a homosexual priest, there is no Natural Good given up in choosing to be celibate, there is not the level of sacrifice that is entailed with the heterosexual priest.

There really IS a difference in celibacy in a heterosexual priest and a homosexual one. One gives up a Natural Good in order to serve, the other is doing what they are called to do anyway.

exactly,if a chronic masturbator or a thief or a serial murderer were to say that they were giving their sin up for the Priesthood there wouldn’t be any sacrifice attributed to that.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

exactly,if a chronic masturbator or a thief or a serial murderer were to say that they were giving their sin up for the Priesthood there wouldn’t be any sacrifice attributed to that.

A person attracted to people of the same sex is not necessarily sinning. It’s an attraction. Please don’t conflate attraction with sin.

 

[The_Bucket]

I have no quarrel with Colin Donovan, but his word is not Gospel. I think he is a sharp fellow and on the mark with much of what he says. But I think going through the “gradation” of sin is diving down a rabbit’s hole. Fair enough that the acts of fornication are not sinful in a vacuum as they are good within a marriage, but that doesn’t make homosexual acts ipso facto “more wrong.”

Why obsess over which is more or less wrong? It’s mortal sin all the same and puts a soul in danger of missing out on eternal life. Leave it there.

Fix, if a man is called to priesthood and ignores that call and marries… he may not have committed sin but he’s not sacrificing in the way the Lord has asked. Priests are called to their vocation regardless of sexual orientation; that orientation should be seen as irrelevant except as it pertains to propensity of sin as Prodigal Son explained. Heterosexual priests are not “better” or “sacrificing more” than homosexual priests. Because they’re also doing what called them to do and that’s to be a priest. Both are answering the call and doing so equally.

MyMy123, what you are talking about is discernment as in discerning whether acts are evil or not. The Holy Father was saying “who am I to judge” in the case of someone who committed sinful acts, repented and confessed and has since lived a good life.

 

[april32010]

So you think that gay people don’t want to have families and reproduce? In my experience talking with Catholic men with same-sex attraction, pretty much every one recognizes the goodness of marriage and family and desires that good. So they would really be sacrificing that objective good, but they are also sacrificing other, subjective goods.

ther is no such thing as same sex marriage,and a same sex couple can’t reproduce

 

[PaulinVA]

None of these are the issue though. The issue is falsely, and unjustly, comparing giving up marriage with avoiding grave sin. The priesthood is not about running away or avoiding something.

No, but several people here seem to think that one must sacrifice in giving up heterosexual marriage for Holy Orders to be valid.

I have never heard that before. I would like to see this proven in a document.

 

[april32010]

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Celibacy_of_the_Clergy

Celibacy of the Clergy is the renunciation of marriage implicitly or explicitly made, for the more perfect observance of chastity, by all those who receive the Sacrament of Orders in any of the higher grades

 

[ThinkTwice]

Herein lies the problem…there is nothing anymore wrong with gay priests as heterosexual priest. Same sex and opposite sex attraction is not a sin.

What is a sin is sex (straight or gay) outside of sacramental marriage.

If a priest honors his vow of celibacy, the is no sin .

Period.

The Holy Father is right, therefore in saying what he said.

Now, if only we were to echo, “Who are WE to judge”.

I agree with you other than the Pope makes it sound like he is not judging those that break the vow of celibacy and you can see others comment here that suggest just that.

Priesthood must have high standards.

 

[Kamaduck]

Alright. After reading this conversation, I have several questions.

1. Are some people with SSA called to the priesthood? If they are, shouldn’t they become priests?
2. Is marriage not considered a sacrifice? I thought that all of the vocations involved sacrifice.
3. If we do something good because we want to do something good, isn’t it still good? Or is it somehow not right because we didn’t have to sacrifice anything?

I am genuinely confused by all of these. People are saying that gay priests don’t have to give up anything, and therefore… What? Are they not allowed to be priests because they didn’t want to get married to begin with?

 

[The_Bucket]

So are married priests of other rites or even the few Latin Rite married priests who are out there not sacrificing as much and therefore “lesser priests” than those who are celibate? And where do they rank relative to homosexually inclined priests on the totem pole? Above because they’re heterosexual or below because they’re not celibate?

 

[mommy_k]

The pope is trying to eliminate hate groups. We are all sinners, and it I’d his job not to judge.
He did not condone this lifestyle, just reminded us that we are all sinners, and if God forgives us we are not God. God is the ultimate judge.

 

[The_Bucket]

I am genuinely confused by all of these. People are saying that gay priests don’t have to give up anything, and therefore… What? Are they not allowed to be priests because they didn’t want to get married to begin with?

Ultimately it boils down to the fact that some people find homosexuality icky and so rather than actually sit down and discuss human sexuality and God’s plan for it like adults, they just stick to preconceived notions that those with same-sex attraction are somehow lesser people. That’s the message I’m hearing.

News flash people. We’re all disordered and broken in some way. We all have sinful tendencies. For some it’s same-sex attraction. For others, it’s deception. For others, substance dependency. For still others it’s ill temper and tendencies towards violence.

Is same-sex attraction disordered? Yes. It is in and of itself a moral wrong? No, no, no, a thousand times no and people who have that attraction are just as much children of God as anyone else. Stop saying things that make them feel marginalized or that they are somehow lesser people.

 

[KrazyKat]

No, but several people here seem to think that one must sacrifice in giving up heterosexual marriage for Holy Orders to be valid.

I have never heard that before. I would like to see this proven in a document.

Many priests have testified that they knew since childhood they wanted to be a priest. They never had the desire to fornicate or get married or be “gay”.

Lord we thank you for all priests.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

ther is no such thing as same sex marriage,and a same sex couple can’t reproduce

I was talking about straight marriage, not gay marriage.

 

[Kevin_B]

I’ve actually wondered why it’s taken so long for a Pope to make an announcement like this. Since both priests and homosexuals are called to celibacy in the Church, it seems like a natural fit that homosexuals be called to priesthood. I thought Benedict’s comments that homosexuals should not be priests (or something similar to that effect) were very damaging top the priesthood.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread closed pending review by moderator Robert Bay.

 

[gam197]

originally posted by markomalley
Before your side breaks out the champagne and before my side gets our knickers too much in a bunch, why don’t we wait until an actual transcript comes out.

The secular media has been wrong about the Church, in general, and this Pope, specifically, too many times to accept this report at face value

Heard it earlier on radio early this morning so the secular media is already spinning it in New England by the way they give out the headline.