Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[Fogwalker]

The inclination is disordered and the Pope teaches that and always will. That is not uncharitable it is true no matter how many deny it.

On these forums, I frequently see people speak the truth uncharitably. In the mainstream media, I frequently see people speak falsehood charitably. The beauty of Francis’ messages is his ability to speak the truth charitably.

The post I quoted above seems to imply that all proclamations of truth are inherently charitable. Is that what you mean here?

 

[njlisa]

I do not buy that argument. The world no longer is repulsed by evil. The same people who embrace porn, adultery and all the rest embrace homosexuality as normal.

The acceptance of this evil is not the start but the end. We have gone over the cliff. The answer is not to deny the obvious or make martyrs out of those who would invert society. This is not about being personally repulsed by eternally wrong behavior it is about the few last nails in the coffin and how that will affect civilization in particular the family. No small matter.

Male on male homosexuality was accepted in ancient Greece, and its society did not come tumbling down instantly. Ancient Greece continues to have an impact on today’s thinking. In fact, Plato’s Symposium celebrates such relationships. This behavior was part and parcel of the idea that women were not worthy companions.

 

[FAB]

This post has been great fun to read. But perhaps all of you should just trust in the pope as the represantive of Christ on earth.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Male on male homosexuality was accepted in ancient Greece, and its society did not come tumbling down instantly. Ancient Greece continues to have an impact on today’s thinking. In fact, Plato’s Symposium celebrates such relationships. This behavior was part and parcel of the idea that women were not worthy companions.

Never the less - it did come tumbling down, although not instantly. The Greeks were thought of as a bit feminine by the Romans, even though they did admire a lot of their culture, eventually they were conquered.

 

[quiet52]

Pope Francis: “If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”

“The problem is not having this orientation,” he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation…

I don’t have the time to read every post, but it seems it’s easy for some to believe that Pope Francis’ remarks indicate some kind of change in the Church’s policy to not admit to the priesthood men have deep-seated gay tendencies.

But no, the holy Pontiff’s words indicate no change at all in teaching, policy or practice. His words “searches for the Lord” and “has good will” are significant. Men who remain attached emotionally or otherwise to their homosexuality tendencies are not likely genuinely seeking God, because they’re stuck being self-focused. His words “has good will” connote that a man seeks to do only God’s will. A man who wants to join the priesthood is not only expected to live according to God’s will, but to help others to do so by sincerely preaching and reinforcing the Truth. Priests are supposed to teach the faithful that homosexual behaviors are gravely immoral. Unfortunately, I’ve known priests who won’t teach this, because they are gay and don’t believe it. Imagine what they say in the confessional. That is the saddest kind of “lobbying.”

The Church is not accepting men to enter seminaries who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies.

And this shows the Church’s wisdom. “Deep-seated” is a significant adjective. The Church must continue to adequately assess and discern any deep-seated disordered tendencies in its seminarians, no matter the sin.

 

[Slaney]

He was also speaking in Italian. So, those of us who aren’t fluent in Italian don’t really know what the exact connotation is.

Did he throw a stone ?

 

[clem456]

I do not buy that argument. The world no longer is repulsed by evil. The same people who embrace porn, adultery and all the rest embrace homosexuality as normal.

The acceptance of this evil is not the start but the end. We have gone over the cliff. The answer is not to deny the obvious or make martyrs out of those who would invert society. This is not about being personally repulsed by eternally wrong behavior **it is about the few last nails in the coffin **and how that will affect civilization in particular the family. No small matter.

The last few nails of any consequence were put in the Cross my friend. Be hopeful

 

[njlisa]

This post has been great fun to read. But perhaps all of you should just trust in the pope as the represantive of Christ on earth.

You have a good point.

Never the less - it did come tumbling down, although not instantly. The Greeks were thought of as a bit feminine by the Romans, even though they did admire a lot of their culture, eventually they were conquered.

Yes. And the Romans crucified Our Lord, killed the Apostles, scattered the Jews, and persecuted the early Church. And they were ultimately conquered.

The Soviet empire was no hotbed of homosexuality. Yet it crumbled.

No civilization lasts forever. The wheel turns. It can’t all be blamed on homosexuality.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

There is no reason to pick his statements apart. One of the reasons I like Pope Francis is because the man has no qualms about saying what he means. He doesn’t need the Vatican filter to come in after the fact with a “Well what he meant was…” Yes, his statement is in stark contrast to that of Benedict on the issue of homosexual clergy and he is right. If God calls someone to the priesthood then who are they to say no on the basis of sexual orientation?

 

[agnes_therese]

The Holy Father’s phrasing gives more hope, I think, to those with SSA.

Yes, it does. Hope that they will be treated as our brothers and sisters in Christ, rather than lepers, as they are by some.

 

[Slaney]

I do not buy that argument. The world no longer is repulsed by evil. The same people who embrace porn, adultery and all the rest embrace homosexuality as normal.

The acceptance of this evil is not the start but the end. We have gone over the cliff. The answer is not to deny the obvious or make martyrs out of those who would invert society. This is not about being personally repulsed by eternally wrong behavior it is about the few last nails in the coffin and how that will affect civilization in particular the family. No small matter.

Jesus said we can do nothing without Him, so he left the keys, but He is the Key-holder, He’s on His way, to make all things right, the dead rise, the aborted alive, the feeding of the 5,000 proves He can make something out of nothing, we were formed out of Love, even though we are dust, nothing is impossible for God…

 

[Tarpeian]

I do not buy that argument. The world no longer is repulsed by evil. The same people who embrace porn, adultery and all the rest embrace homosexuality as normal.

The acceptance of this evil is not the start but the end. We have gone over the cliff. The answer is not to deny the obvious or make martyrs out of those who would invert society. This is not about being personally repulsed by eternally wrong behavior it is about the few last nails in the coffin and how that will affect civilization in particular the family. No small matter.

I have to agree society has capitulated and the ship is going down.

God help us,
Tarpeian

 

[edwest2]

It is obsession. It is self evident. It is way out of proportion to the reality of sin in the world. There are more heterosexual human beings, thank God. But heterosexuals, due to our numbers, harm chastity and the general human condition more than homosexuals.

Really, the Pope’s word’s are enough here. He felt the need to pastorally guide us as he did, and put homosexuality into the proper Catholic perspective. Why do we feel the need to remind people “but but but… homosexuals are still committing disordered acts!”…
no kidding…

And if this line is going to continue, could we post some actual theology detailing the “more mortal” nature of homosexual acts comparative to disordered heterosexual acts? Please?

Then start another thread.

Ed

 

[StuMondo]

This is what I was taught about homosexuality. If anyone is more of an expert in the area feel free to correct any of it, this is merely what I was taught. I’d also be curious of what any same-sex attracted people on here have to say about it. User @Prodigal_Son I’m looking at you.

Point 1) Everyone has their own cross that they take up everyday. That cross can be thought about as a sin orientation that they fight everyday. A sin orientation being a set of sins that the individual is subject to temptation by those sins.

Example: Let’s say a person struggles from gluttony, envy, pride, and lust. That should cut a pretty wide cross-section of Americans. But let’s say you’re a high-energy person who sloth really doesn’t affect, and you’re not very vain, so vanity is something you don’t struggle with.

That would be a very general example of a sin orientation. A set of sins a person struggles with. The sins the person does not struggle with, in the example stated above, sloth and vanity, are not apart of their sin orientation.

Everyone has a specific and unique sin orientation they deal with everyday.

Point 2) Sin orientations can change over time. Perhaps you did not used to struggle with gluttony or lust but you did used to struggle with vanity. At a previous time, you’re sin orientation was different than it is today.

Point 3) It is not your choice to have your sin orientation. No follower of Christ wants to be a sinful person, yet we’re still tempted and give in to our temptations from our sin orientation.

Point 4) Homosexuality is not a sexual orientation. It is a sin orientation. In other words, homosexuality is not a state of being, like your race or your gender. Have you ever met someone who used to be white but now is black? Have you ever met someone who used to be a guy? (not naturally anyway)

However, there are people who used to be gay. The fact that there are people who used to be gay, or even people who are gay that used to be straight debunks the theory that it is a state of being.

Likewise, homosexuality is not a choice. Do you choose to struggle with vanity or gluttony? Of course the answer is no!

So we see that there is a great fallacy of logic used by the mass media, false choice. And that false choice is that you either must believe that it is a state of being, like being black or a dude, OR you must believe it is a choice, a decision you make.

Homesexuality is neither a state of being, nor a decision.

Therefore, no Christian should affirm homosexuality as they would not affirm any other sin. But no homosexual should be proud of a sin they struggle with.

Can you imagine if a person was out in public proclaiming, “I’m a thief and I’m proud of it. And I’m going to continue to thieve.” Please don’t confuse my words and think that I’m likening homosexual behavior to stealing. It is merely an example. There are certain distinct differences between homosexuality and thievery, but in the sense that both behaviors violate the way we are called to live our lives, they are similar.

So then, let’s look at how this affects the Catholic doctrine that a person with homosexual tendencies should not be omitted from the priesthood.

Should the example person who stated he was a thief and proud of it and planned on continuing to be a thief, should he be admitted into the priesthood? What about a different person who struggles with thievery and is tempted by it, but is committed to the Lord and is working on overcoming his temptation to thievery, should he be allowed into the priesthood?

What about a person who struggles with any arbitrary sin?

Should a person who struggles with sin X and is proud of it and continues to execute sin X be allowed into the priesthood? The simple answer is no. But what about a person who struggles with sin X who isn’t proud of it, is a person who has the Lord at the center of their life and is working to not execute sin X. Should he not be allowed into the priesthood?

CCC 2358: “Every sign of unjust discrimination in their [homosexuals] regard should be avoided.”

Is it just or unjust to disallow someone with this particular sin orientation to join the priesthood?

 

[Tarpeian]

This has been an interesting post.

Yet, I am left with a question. The Pope referred to gay/homosexual/ssa (I don’t want to enter in a terminology debate here) people that seeks God and has good will. That he is no one to judge them.

Now, I wonder, would he be someone to judge gay people that aren’t God-seeking for example? Don’t take me out of context, in no way I criticize the Pope, or the Church, at all. I’m just wondering if we as sinners can judge a fellow brother. I was taught that I am not whom to judge, that my fellow brothers, whatever they do in their lives, I must not cheer them, but respect them, that at the end of days, they would face their own judgment day with the Creator, thus I must focus on myself. I may be wrong, or not. Would someone help me with this idea please?

Also, then, what should we do w/gay people that aren’t God-seeking? Marginate them? Embrace them? What is the teaching of the Church there?

Thank you very much, and God Bless!

I have yet to meet a sodomite even family who are “God-seeking.” All they are interested in is flaunting their chosen disordered life, and demanding I capitulate. Unfortunately when you tell them to go and sin no more they become even more militant and vile. I have offered to help them seek out help to fight their vice, the same way I am called to do. So far in all my experiences with sodomites they have no intention of changing they have become a slave to their passions. And until there is some goodwill on their part, I have removed myself from the near occasion of sin.

I’m also open to ideas. I’m also curious how many will admit this is their experience with these deceived souls.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

Please stay on the topic of the original post. Keep the discussion within the context of what the Holy Father said

 

[njlisa]

This has been an interesting post.

Yet, I am left with a question. The Pope referred to gay/homosexual/ssa (I don’t want to enter in a terminology debate here) people that seeks God and has good will. That he is no one to judge them.

Now, I wonder, would he be someone to judge gay people that aren’t God-seeking for example? Don’t take me out of context, in no way I criticize the Pope, or the Church, at all. I’m just wondering if we as sinners can judge a fellow brother. I was taught that I am not whom to judge, that my fellow brothers, whatever they do in their lives, I must not cheer them, but respect them, that at the end of days, they would face their own judgment day with the Creator, thus I must focus on myself. I may be wrong, or not. Would someone help me with this idea please?

Also, then, what should we do w/gay people that aren’t God-seeking? Marginate them? Embrace them? What is the teaching of the Church there?

Thank you very much, and God Bless!

I think we’re hung up on the word “judge” here. The Holy Father, I think, was speaking in a pastoral sense. The Holy Father’s duty is to uphold the teachings of the Church and proclaim the Gospel. How he exactly approaches his duty remains to be seen.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Point 4) Homosexuality is not a sexual orientation. It is a sin orientation. In other words, homosexuality is not a state of being, like your race or your gender. Have you ever met someone who used to be white but now is black? Have you ever met someone who used to be a guy? (not naturally anyway) However, there are people who used to be gay. The fact that there are people who used to be gay, or even people who are gay that used to be straight debunks the theory that it is a state of being.

This is where you lose me. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation and there is no such thing a person who “used to be” a homosexual. There are plenty of homosexual people who choose to be celibate or even engage in heterosexual relations, but their orientation remains the same and there has never been any documented case of a change in orientation from homosexual to heterosexual or heterosexual to homosexual. As far as the science is concerned, its a fixed attribute.

Therefore, no Christian should affirm homosexuality as they would not affirm any other sin. But no homosexual should be proud of a sin they struggle with.

Homosexual orientation isn’t a sin.

Is it just or unjust to disallow someone with this particular sin orientation to join the priesthood?

I would say yes and I think the comments of Pope Francis are of that sentiment.

 

[Midwest88]

Your comments are a joke, would you please leave. Good day. :knight2:

The poster’s post wasn’t the most articulate and suave, but it definitely gets the point across. Not a “charitable” response, but I’ll take it.

 

[Greg_N]

Yes, it does. Hope that they will be treated as our brothers and sisters in Christ, rather than lepers, as they are by some.

And lepers aren’t our brothers and sisters in Christ?