Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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gilliam said:
St. Thomas was talking about sin. SSA isnā€™t sin, it is a temptationā€¦
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Homosexuality is, likewise, an objective disorder. It is a tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil. This ought to be known while discussing same sex attraction.
 
Boston_Sem said:
Homosexuality is, likewise, an objective disorder. It is a tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil. This ought to be known while discussing same sex attraction.
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So is the temptation to murder. That doesnā€™t mean everyone who is tempted will sin. In fact we are ALL tempted every day in many, many ways. A faithful Catholic resists temptation and tries not to sin. We canā€™t condemn someone because they are tempted. I think that is the temptation here. It is very easy to say everyone who has a temptation is a sinner, but that is not the case.

It takes 3 things for a mortal sin.
  1. Grave matter.
  2. Full knowledge.
  3. Deliberate consent.
From the Catechism: 1857 For a *sin *to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: ā€œMortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.ā€ vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

You donā€™t sin if you simply are tempted and you donā€™t act upon it.
 
Boston_Sem said:
Homosexuality is, likewise, an objective disorder. It is a tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil. This ought to be known while discussing same sex attraction.
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Itā€™s amazing how many baptized Catholics are unaware of this. Because they donā€™t know what the Church has taught for centuries, and continues to teach, does not mean that there are not gradations of sin (within mortal sin).

Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil; heterosexual acts are not. The circumstances of fornication make heterosexual acts evil, whereas the circumstances of expressed homosexuality do not lessen the evil attached to the act whatsoever ā€“ no matter how often such ā€œcouplesā€ insist and proclaim that they ā€œloveā€ each other and that thereā€™s a piece of paper somewhere which allows them to imagine that they are ā€œmarried.ā€

Order and disorder are hard categories in Catholic moral theology, and nothing has changed about that. John XXIII didnā€™t change it; Paul VI didnā€™t change it. JP2 didnā€™t change it. BXVI didnā€™t change it. Francis hasnā€™t changed it.

Many priests with similar training to Colin Donovan have appeared on EWTN TV saying the same. There arenā€™t necessarily ā€œinstantā€ documents about that because these are contents of moral theology courses, not Twitter feeds. For example, these priests have explained that we donā€™t go to Confession and merely blow off physical violence (mortal sin, unless defending ourselves or someone else). The circumstances and objects of that violence and degree of that violence complicate the sin, in orders of magnitude. Striking a stranger or adult friend is one thing. Striking oneā€™s spouse to the point of her bleeding and putting her in the hospital is something else entirely. Physical violence to a child or weak person is not the same as hitting oneā€™s neighbor. Ditto for striking a consecrated religious. Ditto for physical violence against the Vicar of Christ.

Thus, not all physically violent acts are equally evil. But beyond that, there are categories of acts which in and of themselves are evil, regardless of circumstance and object.

Iā€™m not the one with an agenda. Rather, those with an agenda are those who are determined to put all sin on an equal plane, as if Pope Francis does (which he does not).

So Iā€™ll keep correcting those who post in error, regardless of their discomfort with that. šŸ˜‰
 
gilliam said:
You donā€™t sin if you simply are tempted and you donā€™t act upon it.
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The poster wasnā€™t talking about temptation being a sin. He was talking about categories of grave matter, and there are in fact categories. One category is the act itself. Another category is the object of the act. Another category is the role & responsibility of the actor.

The aspect of sin (consent) is where subjectivity comes in to modify or confirm the objectivity.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
Homosexual acts are intrinsically evil;
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The Pope specifically separated homosexual temptation from homosexual acts. Homosexual acts are sinful. And as I showed above, temptation isnā€™t a sin. In fact it takes a certain amount of grace to resist strong temptations.

Rejecting those with SSA isnā€™t going to bring them into the grace found in the Catholic Church.

And as the Pope said, too much lobbying going on todayā€¦ for all kinds of thingsā€¦

We should return to what is taught in the Gospels; by Jesus
 
Elizabeth502 said:
The poster wasnā€™t talking about temptation being a sin. He was talking about categories of grave matter, and there are in fact categories. One category is the act itself. Another category is the object of the act. Another category is the role & responsibility of the actor.

The aspect of sin (consent) is where subjectivity comes in to modify or confirm the objectivity.
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People do not like some theological truths because they interfere with their narrative. Americans want equality as the highest goal regardless of moral truth.
 
fix said:
People do not like some theological truths because they interfere with their narrative. Americans want equality as the highest goal regardless of moral truth.
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Just because there are different categories of sin doesnā€™t mean that if your tempted to a grave sin that you somehow already committed that sin. A sin is a sin. A temptation isnā€™t a sin. Some of our greatest saints had horrendous temptations.
 
gilliam said:
The Pope specifically separated homosexual temptation from homosexual acts. Homosexual acts are sinful. And as I showed above, temptation isnā€™t a sin. In fact it takes a certain amount of grace to resist strong temptations.

Rejecting those with SSA isnā€™t going to bring them into the grace found in the Catholic Church.

And as the Pope said, too much lobbying going on todayā€¦ for all kinds of thingsā€¦

We should return to what is taught in the Gospels; by Jesus
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The Pope talked about people with the disorder going to confession when they fall and converting not placing the disordered inclination on par with heterosexuality and claiming it is to be celebrated and constantly trotted a out and discussed publicly and constantly.

His words must be understood in context and reconciled with all of Church teaching not separated out and creating a whole new theology not recognizable to all sons and daughters of the Church.
 
gilliam said:
Just because there are different categories of sin doesnā€™t mean that if your tempted to a grave sin that you somehow already committed that sin. A sin is a sin. A temptation isnā€™t a sin. Some of our greatest saints had horrendous temptations.
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No one has confused temptation with sin. That is a red herring.
 
fix said:
The Pope talked about people with the disorder going to confession and converting not placing the disordered inclination on par with heterosexuality and claiming it is to be celebrated and constantly trotted a out and discussed publicly and constantly.

His words must be understood in context and reconciled with all of Church teaching not separated out and creating a whole new theology not recognizable to all sons and daughters of the Church.
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No one is putting homosexual activity on a par with heterosexual activity. And IMHO, that is off topic to this thread. That is NOT what the Pope said or even hinted at. In other words it is a red herring.

Letā€™s talk about what the Pope actually said, shall we?

The Pope did not create any new theology everything he said was in line with current theology and the Gospel message.
 
gilliam said:
No one is putting homosexual activity on a par with heterosexual activity. And IMHO, that is off topic to this thread. That is NOT what the Pope said or even hinted at. In other words it is a red herring.

Letā€™s talk about what the Pope actually said, shall we?

The Pope did not create any new theology everything he said was in line with current theology and the Gospel message.
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The thread is about misinterpreting the Popeā€™s words. If you read through the posts I have been responding to those who claim there is a shift in Church teaching.

And my post was about inclinations not behavior.
 
fix said:
No one has confused temptation with sin. That is a red herring.
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I am pretty sure I read on this thread a number of posts that alluded to those with SSA has even because homosexual sin is a really, really, really bad sinā€¦ and somehow that makes people with SSA really, really bad people. To say such a thing is uncharitable and against Catholic teaching and what the Pope said.

So letā€™s stop that, OK?
 
fix said:
The thread is about misinterpreting the Popeā€™s words. If you read through the posts I have been responding to those who claim there is a shift in Church teaching.

And my post was about inclinations not behavior.
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Inclinations are not sinā€¦ and people are not evil just because they have certain temptationsā€¦ and we canā€™t judge people based on their temptations. (which is what the Pope was alluding to)

Actually Jesus said we laymen shouldnā€™t be judging people anyway.
 
gilliam said:
Inclinations are not sinā€¦ and people are not evil just because they have certain temptationsā€¦ and we canā€™t judge people based on their temptations. (which is what the Pope was alluding to)

Actually Jesus said we laymen shouldnā€™t be judging people anyway.
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No one had said any of that. Now we can see how the Popeā€™s words get misinterpreted.
 
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