Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

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I do see recent history, and I can see that there are those within the Church’s hierarchy who are obviously trying to promote heterodox ideas, but I do not think that this promotion is part and parcel to their SSA.
It is not about a biologic link. It is that the cultural indoctrination is closely tied to the homosexual inclination. It is indoctrination. To separate that out is why the CDF document mentions deep seated tendency and transitory feelings.
All throughout history, there have been people who tried to promote heterodoxy. It just so happens that, in our current cultural times, homosexuality and whether or not it should be permitted to act upon it is a hot button issue. Homosexual people who are NOT interested in orthodoxy or chaste lives have the most to gain from breaking sexual mores of the Church; so it makes sense that some dishonest and heterodox homosexuals would be the ones, in our current culture, to try to change the Church from within.
That is basically my point. Those folks are the ones seeking entrance to the seminaries and were allowed in by the gatekeepers.
But the point I was making is that these people’s problem, the thing that makes them dangerous as clergy, is NOT that they have SSA, but that they were willing to change the Church’s timeless Truth (if it were possible) to suit their desires and whims. And that’s a risk that is present across the board. In other situations, it could have been greed, or prejudice, etc., whose unorthodox strugglers took advantage of opportunities to try to mold the Church to their whims.
Ok, but the distinction you are making is almost academic. In reality these ties are so close that they are rarely separated. And I would add the inclination has other problems associated with it aside from this cultural need to promote heterodoxy.
But there is nothing about SSA, in and of itself, that makes those of us who struggle with it more prone to trying to mold the Church along heterodox lines than people with other temptations. That’s the implication that bothers me.
I agree it is not a genetic issue that promotes heterodoxy.
As for how people would know that I have SSA, those who do know are people that I have trusted with this. Do I wish that people could be more open about SSA publicly? Yes, but not so that they could “brag,” or “rub it in people’s faces,” but so that they wouldn’t live with the constant fear that “If friend X or relative Y knew that I struggled with this, they’d hate me.” If you know that you could potentially be public about something without extreme repercussions, then you feel much safer that you won’t be rejected when you open up about it on more intimate or localized settings, even if you never actually take advantage of the fact that you could, if you wanted, be more publicly open. That’s all that most of us want: We don’t want to shout anything from the mountains, we just want to be comfortable that, if our secret DID come out or when we DO trust someone with this, it won’t mean we’ll be ostracized and hated; that, if we DID openly share our struggles in the context of testimony so as to reach out to others hiding with this cross and make them feel less alone, that we wouldn’t be ruining our lives. Is that so much to ask?
I think the Church has addressed this issue. It is not unlike other problems. It should be addressed privately for the most part. I really do not see how in this environment people would be unkind in the fact the reverse is true. Many would encourage you to act on it. That is a bigger issue these days.
I do believe that the Pope likely has good reason for what he says, and I myself felt that the priesthood was probably not the best option for me, partly due to my struggles with SSA (although if I hadn’t been struggling with pornography, etc., I wouldn’t have seen nearly so much of a problem), and so I left Seminary of my own initiative. But I don’t believe that every person with SSA would be as ill-suited to the priesthood as I would be. I can’t judge every person with SSA by my own shortcomings.
The Pope’s words seem to me to have been pastoral and disciplinary, not doctrinal, so I think we are at liberty to believe that even if there is wisdom in his words there can also be exceptions for those men with SSA who are winning the battle against impurity more consistently.
I posted his words to show that my position is not unique or wrong.
When the Pope says something that is not Ex Cathedra, we are not bound to believe it as though it was doctrine, but we are called to weigh the wisdom of his words and give them proper respect and (as long as it’s Church policy) obedience; and indeed, I do believe that many men with SSA do struggle with a proper sense of paternity, because SSA often makes a man doubt his own masculinity. But I also believe it is fully possible for a man with SSA to conquer these insecurities, so that he can claim his masculinity more perfectly and be just as good a father figure as anyone. So therefore, although I respect and even grant the wisdom of the Pope’s words, I do not think they are applicable to every man who struggles with SSA, perhaps not even by a long shot. So there can be legitimate (and perfectly orthodox) change to this sort of policy, without denying the general wisdom of the Pope’s concern here.
It may not be doctrine but they are words of wisdom and I hope and pray the policy is not changed.
 
It is not about a biologic link. It is that the cultural indoctrination is closely tied to the homosexual inclination. It is indoctrination.
My point is that many men that deal with lifelong SSA, even many who struggle with sins in this area, do NOT buy into that cultural indoctrination. It is unfair to assume that “person with SSA” is overwhelmingly likely to mean “person who buys into cultural indoctrination on the gay agenda.”
That is basically my point. Those folks are the ones seeking entrance to the seminaries and were allowed in by the gatekeepers.
But these folks are not the ONLY men with SSA seeking such entrance. I sought entry too. I had SSA. If not for certain shortcomings of mine that not every man with SSA has, I might have remained there (I didn’t realize there was any policy against it at the time), although now I see that wasn’t God’s will for me personally. But either way, I was not one of “those folks” you mention. And so I’m confident that many men with SSA who seek entrance into seminaries are also exceptions to that group, just as I was.
Ok, but the distinction you are making is almost academic. In reality these ties are so close that they are rarely separated. And I would add the inclination has other problems associated with it aside from this cultural need to promote heterodoxy.
It is not academic to those of us who are the exceptions that you say are so rare. And from experience I would conclude that these exceptions are not nearly so rare as you might think, certainly not rare enough to make blanket statements about those of us who might aspire to the Holy Orders.

Rather, I suspect from my experience and those of others I’ve known that many of us who are orthodox have also ingrained such shame (which is unhealthy) that we find ways to avoid the revelation that we deal with this; I suspect that the reason the exceptions seem so “rare” to you is that, in our culture (by which I mean “orthodox Catholic culture”) the only ones willing to risk REVEALING their SSA are those who are willing to challenge Church doctrine, while those men who are orthodox are often too afraid to come clean. It creates the illusion that all men with SSA, especially in the clergy, have an agenda, because those who don’t are too afraid to be open… That’s how it was with me, certainly.
I think the Church has addressed this issue. It is not unlike other problems. It should be addressed privately for the most part. I really do not see how in this environment people would be unkind in the fact the reverse is true. Many would encourage you to act on it. That is a bigger issue these days.
Again, when I speak of the culture, I mean the “orthodox Catholic culture” by which those of us with SSA but who truly love the Church and orthodoxy want so badly to be accepted, not to be encouraged to sin but to know that we are not regarded as dirty or scandalous just by our temptations. And those are the walls that many of us wish would come tumbling down. We don’t want people to applaud whenever a man says he has SSA. We don’t want to proclaim it with a megaphone. We certainly don’t want license to sin. We just want to know that our own culture, the culture we value, would not ostracize us IF they knew we had this struggle. We want all those struggling with this to know that our culture accepts them even if it discovers their struggle, so that they’re NOT tempted to go out into the gay culture where they’ll at least be embraced with open arms without secrecy and hiding. And for now, it’s possible that some people will have to be more willing to address these issues in a high profile manner in order to break those walls down.
It may not be doctrine but they are words of wisdom and I hope and pray the policy is not changed.
And I too see the wisdom of his concerns in themselves. I just don’t think that a blanket policy is the answer to those concerns. I think this sort of thing needs to be judged on a case by case basis. Some men with SSA, perhaps many, are not suited to the priesthood. But that doesn’t mean this is true of all of them; it’s a simple matter of fact that his concrete concerns, such as a lack of proper sense of paternity, is not something we can universally apply to an entire group of people. Some men who bear this cross can be excellent paternal figures, for example. I fully agree that the Church needs to make sure that every admitted seminarian has all the qualities necessary to be a priest. I just don’t believe that the answer lies in assuming that certain types of people automatically lack those qualities in spite of the possibility of exceptions, and that assumption would be the only immovable reason for a permanent blanket policy.
 
Our bodies do not know that our souls and minds are Catholic. Our libido may respond to members of either sex. This is an attraction. If it responds to your own sex, it’s a homosexual attraction and it it responds to the opposite sex, it’s heterosexual attraction.

A deep seated homosexual tendency is a little deeper, a lot deeper actually. The person identifies himself or herself in terms of their sexual attraction and organizes his mental constructs around them. Therefore, the person has difficulty establishing healthy relationships with both genders, but it alwasy drawn to be more attentive and intimate with one gender over the other. Even when the person is not actively havin sex, this difficulty establishing meaningful and respectful relationships with both genders makes him or her an unqualified candidate for the priesthood or religious life.

Though the Church has not written a formal declaration on the subject, we follow the same rule for the admission of heterosexuals to holy orders or to religious life. There are some heterosexual people who do lack a healthy affect. The best example that I can offer is the super macho. This is the man who has difficulties relating to women as equal partners in society and in the faith. Such a person may even tend to be homophobic. This person must also be disqualified from religious life or holy orders.

In essence, what we’re looking at when we study a candidate is for a well balanced personality capable of having meaningful relationships with both genders and capable of exercising discipline over his/her sexual responses to triggers. You cannot do away with the sexual triggers. That’s a given. But you must have the internal discipline to respond to them without a struggle. If these triggers create a struggle for the person, then the feelings can safely be deemed to be deep seated. In charity, we do not want to place anyone in a situation of greater struggle than what he already deals with in daily life.
 
The problem is that those of us who have, as you call it, this “serious disorder” resent the implication that we are most of us just itching to promote heterodoxy. I am a married man, but I once wanted to be a priest. I have SSA. I had NO intention of promoting heterodoxy. I have absolutely orthodox views, perhaps even sometimes scrupulous views, going beyond what orthodoxy strictly requires, and had I ever been a bishop or cardinal my “serious disorder” as you call it would not have made me anymore prone than any “straight” clergy to embracing or promoting heterodoxy.

I love orthodoxy. I love the Church. It sickens me when people DO try to change the Church’s timeless doctrine and moral teaching, to the point that I even sometimes (I’m ashamed to admit) lack charity for these people. And yet there are people out there who think that, JUST because I have SSA, that if someone like me were elevated to a position of power in the Church he would be at special risk of promoting heterodoxy? I’m sorry, but that IS insulting, it’s presumptuous, it’s not true.

There is a huge difference between someone who simply HAS same sex attractions and someone who has decided that the Church’s moral teachings are wrong. The current problem with this “homosexual lobby” that many speak of in the Church is not that these men have SSA, it’s that they decided–probably long before becoming clergy–that the Church’s teachings were wrong and that they knew better than the Church. They went in with an agenda. But that agenda is NOT inherently tied to anybody who has SSA. To say so is accusatory, judgmental, and only makes it harder for those of us who bear this cross and would never DREAM of questioning the timeless and unchangeable wisdom of Mother Church. 😦
Most of the comments that you found offensive were about those with “deep seated homosexual inclinations” , not just those who have experienced some SSA and have embraced the truth about it as you have. The Church makes a distinction (if you’ve read the links to documents), and so have most of the commenters.
 
Most of the comments that you found offensive were about those with “deep seated homosexual inclinations” , not just those who have experienced some SSA and have embraced the truth about it as you have. The Church makes a distinction (if you’ve read the links to documents), and so have most of the commenters.
That’s certainly good and well. 🙂

It’s just that in the past I’ve experienced that some people, when they say “deep seated homosexual inclinations” mean anyone who either has this cross as a lifelong thing OR who has had serious temptations in this regard (perhaps falling to pornography, etc.). For the latter sort, it’s true that the priesthood is not ideal, but that would also be true of those dealing with heterosexual sins and is not something unique to those with SSA. For the former, if he has a strong sense of his identity as a man and father figure, I see no reason he would be a bad priest.

But even for both sorts of people I just mentioned, they wouldn’t necessarily be embracing or promoting the gay agenda, as even men with SSA who DO fall to this struggle (whether or not that means they wouldn’t be good priests) can and often do still support and accept Church teachings, just like many other sinners who still obey the Church. A man who struggles with gay sex or pornography on a regular and recent basis, who has not made great progress with conquering it, is no more fit to be a priest than a man who struggles with “straight” pornography and extramarital sex, but it’s because of his problems with chastity, not because he’s inherently predisposed to being a “gay lobbyist” or something or because he’s somehow inferior priest material to his straight counterpart. Plenty of men who so struggle would rather die than betray Church teaching.

If by “deep seated homosexual inclinations” one ONLY means those homosexuals who openly or covertly support having gay sex, who are deeply and unrepentantly entrenched in the “gay lifestyle” and all that, then yes the comments that I was arguing against do apply to those people. I’ve just seen “deep seated homosexual inclinations” used to mean different things, and depending on how it is used, some of the dangers suggested here are woefully inapplicable.
 
But there is nothing about SSA, in and of itself, that makes those of us who struggle with it more prone to trying to mold the Church along heterodox lines than people with other temptations. That’s the implication that bothers me.
I agree with you that heterodoxy cuts right across the board. But really, that’s not the issue at all. If you read the Vatican documents, information from Catholic psychologists, and data about pedophilia as it relates to homosexuality vs. heterosexuality, personality traits closely associated with deep seated SSA, and the degree of affective maturity present, you will see that there are many reasons for the Church to decide that those who suffer these things do not have a vocation to the priesthood. The same thing goes for heterosexual aspirants who have strong personality/maturity issues or deep-seated sexual problems.

This doesn’t mean that, through their struggles, they cannot be holy or be saints (which is the ultimate goal for us all). It just means that their particular struggles are not conducive to serving the faithful in that capacity.
That’s all that most of us want: We don’t want to shout anything from the mountains, we just want to be comfortable that, if our secret DID come out or when we DO trust someone with this, it won’t mean we’ll be ostracized and hated; that, if we DID openly share our struggles in the context of testimony so as to reach out to others hiding with this cross and make them feel less alone, that we wouldn’t be ruining our lives. Is that so much to ask?
As some have stated above, the context of sharing with others who have the same struggles (for instance, in a support group setting, etc) is a different situation.

But here is my question: You said you are married. What about your wife? How would she feel if you were open about this? You seem to be fixated on yourself and your attractions/feelings and whether or not you would be rejected by others…

What about your children? You seem more concerned about others rejecting you rather than any repercussions, stigmatization or humiliation for your children.

These are part of the aforementioned characteristics that create impediments to the priesthood.

Forget about yourself! That might be a first step toward healing. Think about your wife and children! That is a requirement for any married man, whether or not he has SSA. Don’t let your problem become everyone else’s. Life is far more than sex and our sexual attractions.
 
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My point is that many men that deal with lifelong SSA, even many who struggle with sins in this area, do NOT buy into that cultural indoctrination. It is unfair to assume that “person with SSA” is overwhelmingly likely to mean “person who buys into cultural indoctrination on the gay agenda.”

But these folks are not the ONLY men with SSA seeking such entrance. I sought entry too. I had SSA. If not for certain shortcomings of mine that not every man with SSA has, I might have remained there (I didn’t realize there was any policy against it at the time), although now I see that wasn’t God’s will for me personally. But either way, I was not one of “those folks” you mention. And so I’m confident that many men with SSA who seek entrance into seminaries are also exceptions to that group, just as I was.

It is not academic to those of us who are the exceptions that you say are so rare. And from experience I would conclude that these exceptions are not nearly so rare as you might think, certainly not rare enough to make blanket statements about those of us who might aspire to the Holy Orders.

Rather, I suspect from my experience and those of others I’ve known that many of us who are orthodox have also ingrained such shame (which is unhealthy) that we find ways to avoid the revelation that we deal with this; I suspect that the reason the exceptions seem so “rare” to you is that, in our culture (by which I mean “orthodox Catholic culture”) the only ones willing to risk REVEALING their SSA are those who are willing to challenge Church doctrine, while those men who are orthodox are often too afraid to come clean. It creates the illusion that all men with SSA, especially in the clergy, have an agenda, because those who don’t are too afraid to be open… That’s how it was with me, certainly.

Again, when I speak of the culture, I mean the “orthodox Catholic culture” by which those of us with SSA but who truly love the Church and orthodoxy want so badly to be accepted, not to be encouraged to sin but to know that we are not regarded as dirty or scandalous just by our temptations. And those are the walls that many of us wish would come tumbling down. We don’t want people to applaud whenever a man says he has SSA. We don’t want to proclaim it with a megaphone. We certainly don’t want license to sin. We just want to know that our own culture, the culture we value, would not ostracize us IF they knew we had this struggle. We want all those struggling with this to know that our culture accepts them even if it discovers their struggle, so that they’re NOT tempted to go out into the gay culture where they’ll at least be embraced with open arms without secrecy and hiding. And for now, it’s possible that some people will have to be more willing to address these issues in a high profile manner in order to break those walls down.

And I too see the wisdom of his concerns in themselves. I just don’t think that a blanket policy is the answer to those concerns. I think this sort of thing needs to be judged on a case by case basis. Some men with SSA, perhaps many, are not suited to the priesthood. But that doesn’t mean this is true of all of them; it’s a simple matter of fact that his concrete concerns, such as a lack of proper sense of paternity, is not something we can universally apply to an entire group of people. Some men who bear this cross can be excellent paternal figures, for example. I fully agree that the Church needs to make sure that every admitted seminarian has all the qualities necessary to be a priest. I just don’t believe that the answer lies in assuming that certain types of people automatically lack those qualities in spite of the possibility of exceptions, and that assumption would be the only immovable reason for a permanent blanket policy.
I think the Church has the right answer. The document addressed your points. Perhaps part of the problem is two issues. One the other posters mentioned about thinking in terms of others rather than your particular plight. The other issue is to accept that perhaps the inclination, while it may vary in degree from person to person, is more of a problem the you will admit to. Not talking of just morality here but perhaps emotionally and psychologically.

The popular view is to demand this disordered desire must be seen as equal to heterosexuality and must be seen as some minor problem. What if it is much deeper than pop culture claims?
 
If by “deep seated homosexual inclinations” one ONLY means those homosexuals who openly or covertly support having gay sex, who are deeply and unrepentantly entrenched in the “gay lifestyle” and all that, then yes the comments that I was arguing against do apply to those people.
But I don’t think the term refers only to the extreme that you describe. It also refers to those who, although they do not practice the lifestyle, are so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood.

To be so self-absorbed to the point of giving one’s sexual attractions a defining power over one’s life, to the point of calling oneself “gay”, or feeling that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse, is a sign of narcisistic self-centeredness that does not have the self-forgetfulness and sacrificial love necessary to the priesthood (or married life, for that matter). This also goes for heterosexuals who are self-absorbed and fixated on sex/sexual attractions to the point of not being able to properly relate to others in a manner of sacrificial Christian love. It’s a matter of priorities…self vs. God and others.
 
But I don’t think the term refers only to the extreme that you describe. It also refers to those who, although they do not practice the lifestyle, are so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood.

To be so self-absorbed to the point of giving one’s sexual attractions a defining power over one’s life, to the point of calling oneself “gay”, or feeling that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse, is a sign of narcisistic self-centeredness that does not have the self-forgetfulness and sacrificial love necessary to the priesthood (or married life, for that matter). This also goes for heterosexuals who are self-absorbed and fixated on sex/sexual attractions to the point of not being able to properly relate to others in manner of sacrificial Christian love. It’s a matter of priorities…self vs. God and others.
Very good point and I am sure the Holy Father would agree.
 
But I don’t think the term refers only to the extreme that you describe. It also refers to those who, although they do not practice the lifestyle, are so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood.

To be so self-absorbed to the point of giving one’s sexual attractions a defining power over one’s life, to the point of calling oneself “gay”, or feeling that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse, is a sign of narcisistic self-centeredness that does not have the self-forgetfulness and sacrificial love necessary to the priesthood (or married life, for that matter). This also goes for heterosexuals who are self-absorbed and fixated on sex/sexual attractions to the point of not being able to properly relate to others in a manner of sacrificial Christian love. It’s a matter of priorities…self vs. God and others.
I question your identification of those who are “so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood” with those who “feel that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse”. In fact, I am highly puzzled as to how a person who DID have the personality and affective problems you describe could *possibly *get the help he needs without confessing his problems with same-sex attraction to a number of people, who are gifted at helping in such situations.

Being open about problems is healing, especially if one is discerning about to whom one is open.
 
I question your identification of those who are “so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood” with those who “feel that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse”. In fact, I am highly puzzled as to how a person who DID have the personality and affective problems you describe could *possibly *get the help he needs without confessing his problems with same-sex attraction to a number of people, who are gifted at helping in such situations.

Being open about problems is healing, especially if one is discerning about to whom one is open.
They go see a psychiatrist not a seminary.
 
But I don’t think the term refers only to the extreme that you describe. It also refers to those who, although they do not practice the lifestyle, are so mentally preoccupied with it that they suffer other personality and affective problems that are at odds with a vocation to the priesthood.

To be so self-absorbed to the point of giving one’s sexual attractions a defining power over one’s life, to the point of calling oneself “gay”, or feeling that one’s sexual orientation is of interest to anyone other than a spouse, is a sign of narcisistic self-centeredness that does not have the self-forgetfulness and sacrificial love necessary to the priesthood (or married life, for that matter). This also goes for heterosexuals who are self-absorbed and fixated on sex/sexual attractions to the point of not being able to properly relate to others in a manner of sacrificial Christian love. It’s a matter of priorities…self vs. God and others.
Whenever some people call themselves gay, they are simply using that as a shorthand for “I’m attracted to the same gender.” These are not inherently defining themselves by their sexual attractions anymore than someone who says “I, too, am a sinner, and I face temptation everyday” is defining himself by sin and temptation in general.

And whenever someone with same sex attraction–certainly anyone on this thread–expresses an interest in being more open about it, it has nothing to do with wanting to brag, nor with presuming that everyone and his brother wants to hear about one’s sexual orientation.

It has to do with simply not being afraid, anymore than, say, someone with temptations toward greed would be afraid of bringing that up if it was relevant, or confiding it to a friend or relative or prayer group without feeling like he would be rejected. It has to do with we Christians acting as a family in Christ, and thus being able to invite each other to share burdens and open up to us without fear that we will reject them. It has to do with the fact that, when people DO grow close with one another, confiding such things is one way that people build trust, and people with SSA just want to know that their Christian friends are a safe place to confide, not because they’re self centered, but because sharing one’s life is a part of building intimate friendships and bonds.

See, the problem is that we make far too many presumptions about the motives of those who would be more open about this. That’s what I see here: The presumption that every move a person with SSA makes is about being “self centered” or “obsessed with sexual self-definition” or whatever else. If being open about one’s SSA is self centered, then it would seem to me that the logical conclusion is that anyone who has ever openly acknowledged some other shortcoming or other must be self centered too.
 
Whenever some people call themselves gay, they are simply using that as a shorthand for “I’m attracted to the same gender.” These are not inherently defining themselves by their sexual attractions anymore than someone who says “I, too, am a sinner, and I face temptation everyday” is defining himself by sin and temptation in general.

And whenever someone with same sex attraction–certainly anyone on this thread–expresses an interest in being more open about it, it has nothing to do with wanting to brag, nor with presuming that everyone and his brother wants to hear about one’s sexual orientation.

It has to do with simply not being afraid, anymore than, say, someone with temptations toward greed would be afraid of bringing that up if it was relevant, or confiding it to a friend or relative or prayer group without feeling like he would be rejected. It has to do with we Christians acting as a family in Christ, and thus being able to invite each other to share burdens and open up to us without fear that we will reject them. It has to do with the fact that, when people DO grow close with one another, confiding such things is one way that people build trust, and people with SSA just want to know that their Christian friends are a safe place to confide, not because they’re self centered, but because sharing one’s life is a part of building intimate friendships and bonds.

See, the problem is that we make far too many presumptions about the motives of those who would be more open about this. That’s what I see here: The presumption that every move a person with SSA makes is about being “self centered” or “obsessed with sexual self-definition” or whatever else. If being open about one’s SSA is self centered, then it would seem to me that the logical conclusion is that anyone who has ever openly acknowledged some other shortcoming or other must be self centered too.
How much do we read about people claiming they are greedy? Want to cheat on their spouse? Want to do some other sin? Not as often as we hear about the "gay’ issue. That is why we have confession and counselors. I doubt speaking to a friend or prayer group is an issue. If it is then they are not your friend or a good group.
 
How much do we read about people claiming they are greedy? Want to cheat on their spouse? Want to do some other sin? Not as often as we hear about the "gay’ issue. That is why we have confession and counselors. I doubt speaking to a friend or prayer group is an issue. If it is then they are not your friend or a good group.
SSA men definitely do think speaking to friends or prayer groups is “an issue”. And I agree that prudence is absolutely key. But we have friends in these prayer groups that constantly complain that homosexuals ought to just shut up and handle things on their own. Does that make us feel welcome to share with them? :confused:

No, actually, it makes it imprudent, probably. I just want there to be SOME contexts in which such a sharing can be prudent. That’s a matter of the Church being more welcoming, not of homosexuals being less narcissistic.

And that’s why I’m glad that Pope Francis is being more welcoming. Welcoming to repentant sinners, not to unapologetic libertines. 👍
 
My point was just that they need to talk to somebody, and Opus seemed to disagree.
I think you know well that I did not disagree with this point. If you read my posts you will see that I wasn’t talking about counseling , therapy or support groups.
 
How much do we read about people claiming they are greedy? Want to cheat on their spouse? Want to do some other sin? Not as often as we hear about the "gay’ issue. That is why we have confession and counselors. I doubt speaking to a friend or prayer group is an issue. If it is then they are not your friend or a good group.
That’s the problem: It’s incredibly hard for men with SSA to find friends or a good prayer group whom they can feel securely confident wouldn’t then grow icy and distant if they knew about the SSA. Such friends do definitely exist, but a man with SSA really has to approach this with great risk of trial and error, such that for many such men they’re too afraid to take the risk. Whenever we talk of openness here, we’re just talking about the kind of atmosphere/practice that promotes a world where people who bear this cross are not SO afraid to open up about this that they fear even to “test the waters” with the friends and prayer groups that you rightly suggest are a better context for such openness.

Again, we have better things to do in the public square than talk about our attractions all day. But we would certainly like to know that we can open up and share our struggles and shortcomings with friends and certain subgroups and know we won’t be judged or rejected. Maybe reaching such a state doesn’t require for men with SSA to be publicly open, but it probably does require someone, SSA or not, to make public appeals for people to be loving and non-judgmental IF a friend or someone in your prayer group is open about this (or any other struggle, for that matter). Because that’s lacking, in our current situation.

I think statements like that of the Pope are a definite step in the right direction; because if others emulated his attitude in that statement, then we’d be much closer to making the above ideal a reality.
 
How much do we read about people claiming they are greedy? Want to cheat on their spouse? Want to do some other sin? Not as often as we hear about the "gay’ issue. That is why we have confession and counselors. I doubt speaking to a friend or prayer group is an issue. If it is then they are not your friend or a good group.
The homosexual issue has nowhere near the deleterious effect on real lives that heterosexual lust does. That’s a much bigger issue and problem, just due to the sheer numbers. Heterosexual lust is talked about, pictured, shown in movies, waaaay more than the gay issue. It might not be in the political news as much as the gay issue, but, heterosexual lust is not stigmatized like gay lust, so it lends itself to political news. Sometimes we notice what we are predisposed to look for. (I think Satan is on to something there…)

Go to the most used web portal in the world, Yahoo. Look at the stories and the pop-up ads.
J-Lo’s new swimsuit. The Kardashians are pregnant. Six ways to please your lover. The ads have singles pop ups.

Tell me that regular old disordered lust between men and women is not the predominant issue of our day.
 
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