Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[Prodigal_Son]

It assumes that “orientation” is different than concupiscence. A disordered desire is a desire to sin. So, while having same-sex desire is not a sin, it is concupiscence. It is odd to identify oneself by their sinful “orientation.”

I agree that it’s odd. It might be useful, though, in the current cultural environment.

Now, if someone asks you if you plan to get married, and you are comfortable enough to share your concupiscence in your answer, that is fine with me, personally. However, you should know and expect a level of discomfort from other people. Again, there are people who struggle with pedophilia, adulterous lust, bestial desires, masturbation/pornography, etc. If they are successfully dealing with those sinful desires or “orientations” by living chaste lives (single or married), they generally don’t share their inclinations through casual conversation.

There is not an “adultery lobby” or a “masturbation lobby” or a “pedophile lobby”. People in the culture are not teaching that these things are not only OK, but things that should determine your future. With homosexuality, it’s different. To start a movement of “gay celibacy” would be a tremendous witness to the culture.

As for the level of discomfort people have, that’s fine. Catholics will be better evangelists if they encounter these things IN the church, first, so they can understand gay people better.

Oh, and rlg, I commend you for the tone of your comments so far, which have been very fair and have shown a desire to understand, along with a keen intellect.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Nonsense. People have strong inclinations toward all of those sins. Their concupiscence is no less or more sinful than someone who is “gay,” but remaining chaste. A chaste pedophile is just as sinless and/or as much a sinner as you and I.

Just as sinless, then.

Mere concupiscence is not sin.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’d trust the pope ahead of people on this thread, personally.

So would I.

PRESS CONFERENCE OF POPE FRANCIS IN RETURN FLIGHT FROM BRAZIL (Translation by Google Translate)

Sunday, July 28, 2013

Patricia Zorzan:
Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed, and we see many young people in Brazil. You have not talked about abortion, marriage between same sex. In Brazil have passed a law extending abortion rights and allowed marriage between same sex. Why has not talked about this?

Papa Francesco:
The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!

Patricia Zorzan:
But it is a matter of interest to young people …

Papa Francesco:
Yes, but there was no need to talk about this, but the positive things that open the way to the boys. Is not it? In addition, young people know exactly what is the position of the Church!

Patricia Zorzan:
What is the position of his Holiness, can you tell?

Papa Francesco:
That of the Church. I am the son of the Church!

Source

 

[rlg94086]

I agree that it’s odd. It might be useful, though, in the current cultural environment.

There is not an “adultery lobby” or a “masturbation lobby” or a “pedophile lobby”. People in the culture are not teaching that these things are not only OK, but things that should determine your future. With homosexuality, it’s different. To start a movement of “gay celibacy” would be a tremendous witness to the culture.

As for the level of discomfort people have, that’s fine. Catholics will be better evangelists if they encounter these things IN the church, first, so they can understand gay people better.

Oh, and rlg, I commend you for the tone of your comments so far, which have been very fair and have shown a desire to understand, along with a keen intellect.

Thank you, and I do see your point. However, I would argue that, while there is not a lobby for any of those sins, society has become very accepting of masturbation, fornication, and even adultery. In fact, it is even more accepting of them than homosexuality.

I think a movement within the Church for “gay celibacy” already exists, does it not? Isn’t that what the Courage apostolate is all about?

 

[rlg94086]

Just as sinless, then.

Mere concupiscence is not sin.

Exactly my point.

 

[Dawnia]

Not sure how to respond to that.

Celibate = not a sin. Gay (orientation itself) = not a sin. Catholic = not a sin.

So…why is that bad? It just tells the other person the reason for singleness.

I hear the same “you shouldn’t identify with your orientation” in Protestant circles.

I always just assumed Catholics are more spiritually nuanced in that the word gay is not some evil curse.

Why does there have to be a qualifier? Can’t people just be people and not broken into little categories that are completely unimportant? Someone’s orientation tells me nothing about who a person is as a person.

 

[rlg94086]

Why does there have to be a qualifier? Can’t people just be people and not broken into little categories that are completely unimportant? Someone’s orientation tells me nothing about who a person is as a person.

Yep. We are all children of God, struggling with our own inclinations toward sin.

 

[EIF5A]

Why does there have to be a qualifier? Can’t people just be people and not broken into little categories that are completely unimportant? Someone’s orientation tells me nothing about who a person is as a person.

I was going to bow out of this conversation, but since this was addressed to me:

I don’t introduce myself as a gay celibate Christian, but if the situation arises where there are discussions about dating/marriage/etc, and someone asks me about it, I tell them that I’m gay and celibate.

Simple as that.

Oddly enough, I get more compassionate responses from non-believers. They might say, “You’re crazy for striving for lifelong celibacy” or “You’ll eventually find the right person and change your mind”, but none of them condemn me for voicing my beliefs or tell me to basically keep my mouth shut.

Is there any wonder why gays see the Church as being hateful when they can’t even talk about celibacy without rancor from people?

 

[Mark121359]

The hierarchy, including Rome, have used equivalent terms in discussing the state of catechesis in the Church. No need to “correct” me when Rome does not.

Many of the catechetical programs in place are in fact filled with error (sloppy being a gentler term). Again, this is affirmed and reaffirmed by many local clergy and the hierarchy itself. What you might not know is that these programs are not uniform, not by any means. The fact that the Church has a standard Catechism in no way means that (a) that standard catechism is understood, by those assigned to teach it; (b) that catecheism (or an authentic derivation) is even being used; very often something else entirely has been substituted; (c) there is oversight for what is being taught, who is teaching it, and how that is being taught. Oversight varies from parish to parish and diocese to diocese, in consistency, content, and regularity, resulting in the heterodoxy that is abundant within the laity (supposedly, over 50%) and the even more pronounced lack of information about their own Church. None of these observations originated with me; they have been noticed by many in the Church, in positions of authority. Apparently you haven’t heard about them, but they do exist nevertheless. Further, the expertise and preparation of the RCIA directors varies markedly by location. Many are recent converts to Catholicism with scant training, through no fault of their own. However, the fact that such were appointed over the far more qualified persons in most dioceses is definitely a problem for the Church. Many CAF members (converts) have spoken about the various degrees of knowledge, or lack thereof, by their own RCIA director/leader.

Because the Catechism is a tiny abridgement of the full doctrine of the Church. It is by no means comprehensive, but merely fundamental or basic.

I’m not sure why you continue to represent to us that supposedly STA is the “only” theologian whose theology contains that Truth. That is one of the many errors you have repeated. It most certainly is doctirne, but again, not necessarily formally taught in standard catechesis. Many on CAF had more refined catechesis from non-modernistic, orthodox sources, and those kinds of distinctions are taught, and such are repeated by those who studied at the Angelicum in Rome (Colin Donovan being only one of many who have noted such distinctions publicly).

The sinner is not condemned. The sin is, and is not equivalent to adultery, which is also grave, and both such sinners need to repent, as do I (guilty of other sins).

Have a nice day, clem.

Spot on as usual with your comments Elizabeth!..sounds like some on here would benefit from listening to Fr. Charles P. Connor and his comments about catechesis being devastated in the 60’s following Vatican ll and his quote; “We probably have a couple of generations of Catholic illiterates.”

Peace, Mark

 

[rlg94086]

I was going to bow out of this conversation, but since this was addressed to me:

I don’t introduce myself as a gay celibate Christian, but if the situation arises where there are discussions about dating/marriage/etc, and someone asks me about it, I tell them that I’m gay and celibate.

Simple as that.

Oddly enough, I get more compassionate responses from non-believers. They might say, “You’re crazy for striving for lifelong celibacy” or “You’ll eventually find the right person and change your mind”, but none of them condemn me for voicing my beliefs or tell me to basically keep my mouth shut.

Is there any wonder why gays see the Church as being hateful when they can’t even talk about celibacy without rancor from people?

Catholics shouldn’t be condemning you or telling you to “keep your mouth shut.” Where are you running into Catholics who do that to you?

 

[kag1982]

I was going to bow out of this conversation, but since this was addressed to me:

I don’t introduce myself as a gay celibate Christian, but if the situation arises where there are discussions about dating/marriage/etc, and someone asks me about it, I tell them that I’m gay and celibate.

Simple as that.

Oddly enough, I get more compassionate responses from non-believers. They might say, “You’re crazy for striving for lifelong celibacy” or “You’ll eventually find the right person and change your mind”, but none of them condemn me for voicing my beliefs or tell me to basically keep my mouth shut.

Is there any wonder why gays see the Church as being hateful when they can’t even talk about celibacy without rancor from people?

Well… Here is a compassionate response from a Catholic. I commend you for striving to live up to the Church’s teachings. Most people, straight or gay, don’t on sexual issues. Gosh that must be a lonely challenge. I know that my parish has a LGBT and allies outreach program and the Archdiocese of Chicago as a LGBT group. (There was a thread about a protest at a Mass that Cardinal George presided over a few weeks ago.) The Catechism may have said certain things about compassion toward gays, but people feel the need to judge. I think that this is why what the Pope said was so important. It wasn’t earth shattering in terms of content, but it was in terms tone. He basically was calling a cease fire on this. Let’s leave the judging to God and show each other mercy and forgiveness.

 

[EIF5A]

Catholics shouldn’t be condemning you or telling you to “keep your mouth shut.” Where are you running into Catholics who do that to you?

In the most polite way possible, I’m told I shouldn’t mention my orientation because that’s mentioning sin. Basically, live quietly and invisibly. Your troubles are your cross, and just deal with it and don’t bring it up.

Nothing in Church teaching forbids me from describing myself as gay as long as I don’t live in the lifestyle.

 

[EIF5A]

Well… Here is a compassionate response from a Catholic. I commend you for striving to live up to the Church’s teachings. Most people, straight or gay, don’t on sexual issues. Gosh that must be a lonely challenge. I know that my parish has a LGBT and allies outreach program and the Archdiocese of Chicago as a LGBT group. (There was a thread about a protest at a Mass that Cardinal George presided over a few weeks ago.) The Catechism may have said certain things about compassion toward gays, but people feel the need to judge. I think that this is why what the Pope said was so important. It wasn’t earth shattering in terms of content, but it was in terms tone. He basically was calling a cease fire on this. Let’s leave the judging to God and show each other mercy and forgiveness.

Thank you.

 

[gracepoole]

Well… Here is a compassionate response from a Catholic. I commend you for striving to live up to the Church’s teachings. Most people, straight or gay, don’t on sexual issues. Gosh that must be a lonely challenge. I know that my parish has a LGBT and allies outreach program and the Archdiocese of Chicago as a LGBT group. (There was a thread about a protest at a Mass that Cardinal George presided over a few weeks ago.) The Catechism may have said certain things about compassion toward gays, but people feel the need to judge. I think that this is why what the Pope said was so important. It wasn’t earth shattering in terms of content, but it was in terms tone. He basically was calling a cease fire on this. Let’s leave the judging to God and show each other mercy and forgiveness.

Bingo!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Is there any wonder why gays see the Church as being hateful when they can’t even talk about celibacy without rancor from people?

Hear, hear!

 

[Elizabeth502]

Spot on as usual with your comments Elizabeth!..sounds like some on here would benefit from listening to Fr. Charles P. Connor and his comments about catechesis being devastated in the 60’s following Vatican ll and his quote; “We probably have a couple of generations of Catholic illiterates.”

Mark, I almost forgot about that wonderful segment on Fr. Mitch Pacwa’s program which you must be referring to, where Fr. Charles Connor, a well-reputed Church historian, reveals that very history of the catechesis which deteriorated rapidly. And yes, we are seeing the fruit of that today.

 

[clem456]

If you insist on asking a technical moral theology question, then the answer to that moral theology question is Yes. Fix has explained this, as have I. You learn those kinds of distinctions in a fuller catechesis than the sloppy one that has tended to be available in the recent past.

.

The hierarchy, including Rome, have used equivalent terms in discussing the state of catechesis in the Church. No need to “correct” me when Rome does not.

Many thanks to you and Fix then.
I thank God you’ve had the fuller catechesis. Is that Rome’s catechesis? Or who’s, which, catechesis?
Rome has called it’s own catechesis “sloppy”? The Catholic Church does “sloppy” catechesis? Who has the “fuller catechesis” then Elizabeth? We’d all like the fuller catechesis you and Fix have received.

You’re correct, I don’t need to correct you. You’re correct Elizabeth.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Nothing in Church teaching forbids me from describing myself as gay as long as I don’t live in the lifestyle.

And nothing in Church doctrine technically forbids others from spilling all of their secrets in possibly inappropriate settings (or without prompt) either, such as “sharing” that they have been adulterers, addicted to porn, have had an abortion or funded one, are a recovering alcoholic or drug addict, were guilty once of Grand Theft, have committed sacrilege (of the sacraments) repeatedly, or once cohabited for a period of time before marriage. And ditto for the temptations (attractions) to do any of that, if such persons were or are afflicted with such disordered temptations. Not unless the circumstances make such a revelation helpful (charitable) to others.

However, in Church spirituality (what is also contained in the Catechism), Catholic Christianity requires us, in the striving of all of us toward sainthood, to focus always on the benefit to the other person, as opposed to the scandal, confusion, or discomfort of others. And that most often involves the Christian virtue of prudence, and the consideration of discretion.

OTOH, our modern age offers abundant opportunities to ‘let it all hang out’ in appropriate venues, such as support groups --including lay ministries – Courage, various Recovery groups within parishes (addictions, abortions), sponsored by that parish, diocese, or approved Catholic groups. Etc.

My closest friends might benefit from my most personal secrets, but not new acquaintances in a parish setting. There are different levels of acquaintanceship and friendship, not all of them equally intimate and revealing, but all of them requiring not only the consideration of our own needs but also those of the other.

 

[Julian_Bashir]

*Patricia Zorzan:
Speaking on behalf of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have changed, and we see many young people in Brazil. You have not talked about abortion, marriage between same sex. In Brazil have passed a law extending abortion rights and allowed marriage between same sex. Why has not talked about this?

Papa Francesco:
The Church has already expressed this perfectly. It was not necessary to go back, as I have not even talked about the fraud, deceit or other things which the Church has a clear doctrine!

Patricia Zorzan:
But it is a matter of interest to young people …

Papa Francesco:
Yes, but there was no need to talk about this, but the positive things that open the way to the boys. Is not it? In addition, young people know exactly what is the position of the Church!

Patricia Zorzan:
What is the position of his Holiness, can you tell?

Papa Francesco:
That of the Church. I am the son of the Church!*

Some people are so obstinate and annoying. He’s the Pope. He can’t err in faith and morals. His belief on gay marriage is the same as what is written in the Catechism. Same with abortion.

I wish he’d say “stop asking me stupid questions, lady.”

 

[clem456]

Spot on as usual with your comments Elizabeth!..sounds like some on here would benefit from listening to Fr. Charles P. Connor and his comments about catechesis being devastated in the 60’s following Vatican ll and his quote; “We probably have a couple of generations of Catholic illiterates.”

Peace, Mark

Source the program please, so we can all wax glowingly about the “Catholic illiterates” you are referencing.
Thanks for the productive post.