Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[The_Bucket]

I don’t understand why those who struggle with same sex attraction believe their struggle is more noble or more acceptable than other sexual desires. What is it about homosexuality that makes it different? Why must people identify themselves in that manner?

I don’t think you’ll find many folks on CAF that would identify themselves as such or think they are noble in their struggle. As for those outside of this forum, I daresay that pressure from within and from without, as well as the general cultural emphasis on sex and self-identification plays a major role.

I don’t know the genesis of my disordered sexual desires, but I have had them in adulthood as long as I can remember. I wouldn’t identify myself as ephebophile. I’m a Catholic man, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

Good! I don’t think you should identify yourself as anything else.

I say “I’m a sexaholic” or “I’m a porn addict” at my meetings but that’s because the forum requires me to do so. It also reminds me of my sinful tendencies and is a humbling thing to say, which is important for an egotistical person like me. But I don’t think that’s who I am at my core. That’s what I did. That’s who I allowed Satan to twist me into. I’m a beloved child of God like everyone else, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

For me personally the only people i have told about my ssa is here on CA. I am a practising catholic, I’ve got as far as my mid 30’s without acting on my desire to be with someone of the same sex, partly because i have been brought up catholic and have had a strong connection with the lord. I can’t say its getting any easier as i get older, to know i may never have a loving relationship with another human, to try and accept this is what my plan from God is, can be difficult. ssa is an emotional experience, not one any catholic would chose to live with if they had the choice between natural marriage, etc. Why some out n proud people need to show it off and stick it in peoples faces is not for me to judge, but I think most would not believe in the one true God or else they would not do this, i could be very wrong about that, but its just an opinion, people like me who remain quiet and try to get on with it, but would like to off load it some time with support from others who care on here can be a help. If that makes me selfish, then so be it.

I empathize with the difficulty of your situation. I don’t think you are being selfish in wanting to offload on CAF about being same sex attracted.

The paragraph in my post was discussing happily married individuals to their wives with children, who feel compelled to air their feelings of SSA on this board, giving the impression that they inordinately dwell on such thoughts. To a number of members reading the postings, this begs the question, why or what for? Why dwell on these feelings, which could not be helpful.
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

You will likely not find many people with homosexual inclinations to be aligned with the teachings of the Church. This is not me going on blast against them, it’s simply a fact. Then again, most heterosexual Catholics are also not aligned with the teachings of the Church on matters of sexuality so it’s really neither here nor there.

I don’t know on what basis you say that it is simply a fact that there are not many people with homosexual inclinations aligned with the teachings of the Church. Quite a number of self disclosed chaste homosexuals responded to a thread started by a former active lesbian who lived and later abandoned the lifestyle. I will try to dig up that old thread.

Nice segue there, changing the topic to sexually sinful heterosexual Catholics. Do they have a movement or a lobby, or battles with the Church for a pass for their brand of sin?

Those who are aligned with the Church are not fighting Catholics on anything except tone and messaging. Why? Probably because they understand that tone matters. Tone wins souls. It’s not just being “politically correct” or any of that hogwash, it’s an attempt to win souls. You have to meet people where they are to win them over. You’re not going to win anyone over with standoffish behavior, emotionless theological swordplay or direct confrontation.

Does if really? Tone being the factor more important than anything else? Individuals need to be open to and cooperate with grace, as well, for their souls to be won.

The Pope did not change the message and truth with the tone he used with “who am I to judge gays,” yet many seem to think he did.

It is not being standoffish to disagree with you. Show me where or if I used theological swordplay in our exchange, with an “emotionless” adjective at that.

See that’s the problem and it goes with what I was just saying above. Tone matters. Tone wins souls. You’re immediately prejudicial. Not about homosexual persons but about people who talk about their brokenness. How is it a burden to you to hear about someone who deals with same-sex attraction? Especially a random person on the Internet.

It seems that tone is the favored word nowadays.

As I mentioned in my reply to simpleas, and will repeat herein,
The paragraph in my post was discussing happily married individuals to their wives with children, who feels compelled to air their feelings of SSA on this board, giving the impression that they dwell on such thoughts inordinately. To a number of members reading the postings, this begs the question, what for? Why dwell on these feelings, which could not be helpful.
Repetition of TMI (too much information) presents as a burden to the receiver of the information, in the case where opposing positions ensued with members reading the struggle of a married guy with unacted SSA, disclosing at the same time having an existing satisfactory sex life with his beloved wife with whom he is raising children. Then two others chimed in being in the same or similar situation. It may indeed be an issue but it does not come across as something that would be too much. This isn’t like the situation of simpleas above.

Private confession was not instituted in order to protect the masses from the burdens of other’s sins, it was to bring more people to the grace of God! Public confession has the tendency to bring the opportunity for shaming. Public confession probably kept people away from God’s grace out of fear. Private confession is a mercy to the penitent, not to the penitent’s community.

I don’t know how this is related to anything that I said.

We are all in agreement that the best context is for these kinds of discussions are in smaller groups as opposed to randomly going up to people or shouting them in the middle of Mass… but we as a Church need to promote this issue. Does anyone know about Courage? I mean outside of CAF and other highly-active Catholics. Does your rank-and-file layperson know about Courage? Does your average pastor know how to deal with this issue? That’s the point that Pope Francis and others are making here. Meet the people where they are and leave the judgments where they belong. We are sons of the Church as well; certainly not to the level of the Holy Father but where do you see advocacy for a change in the doctrine? No. The Holy Father wants us to stop being squeamish about getting in there and mixing it up. That means ministering to the sick, to the poor, to the homeless, to the destitute and yes, to the grave sinner.

The Courage Ministry is well known around here and in Catholic parishes.

Judgment of action, that is, when appropriate and called for, but not judgment of souls.

 

[clem456]

I empathize with the difficulty of your situation. I don’t think you are being selfish in wanting to offload on CAF about being same sex attracted.

The paragraph in my post was discussing happily married individuals to their wives with children, who feel compelled to air their feelings of SSA on this board, giving the impression that they inordinately dwell on such thoughts. To a number of members reading the postings, this begs the question, why or what for? Why dwell on these feelings, which could not be helpful.
,

I am not SSA but speaking for my own temptation to lust even as a married man…

the evil of lust preys on inordinate shame, fear, and isolation. A person may not be so much dwelling on these issues as simply dealing with them the best way possible. Dealing with them requires getting them out in conversation in the light of day. These are the best antiseptics for these temptations… honest and open discussion with other good Christians. Not with the neighbor kids or at the parish picnic, of course not. But with the appropriate people at the appropriate time. The people I would discuss these things with are not what I would call sympathetic, rather they give me the straight up Christian advice I need.

These temptations must be dealt with or they can swallow an isolated person into a black hole. There are huge numbers of people enslaved to lust. Look at the statistics on internet usage. More often than not, overcoming an obsession with or inclination to SSA, or overcoming lust in general, requires other people to be involved. Most people don’t overcome it in isolation.

I know that is hard for most people who are not ensnared in SSA or lust to imagine talking about these things. And it is humiliating for the tempted ones to realize we need the help of others, but the humiliation can be a blessing that turns us back toward Christ.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t know on what basis you say that it is simply a fact that there are not many people with homosexual inclinations aligned with the teachings of the Church. Quite a number of self disclosed chaste homosexuals responded to a thread started by a former active lesbian who lived and later abandoned the lifestyle. I will try to dig up that old thread.

Yes, these are people on CAF and we all know that CAF is a self-selected group of folks who are generally better catechized than your average layperson. I fully admit that this is a generalization but I think it’s more accurate than not.

Nice segue there, changing the topic to sexually sinful heterosexual Catholics. Do they have a movement or a lobby, or battles with the Church for a pass for their brand of sin?

On what issues? Divorce? Adultery? No. On contraception they certainly had one for awhile but now people just ignore the Church’s teaching and do whatever they want. Same goes for folks who live together. There’s no need for a lobby when you can far more easily just completely ignore the teaching.

Does if really? Tone being the factor more important than anything else? Individuals need to be open to and cooperate with grace, as well, for their souls to be won.

The Pope did not change the message and truth with the tone he used with “who am I to judge gays,” yet many seem to think he did.

It is not being standoffish to disagree with you. Show me where or if I used theological swordplay in our exchange, with an “emotionless” adjective at that.

I’m not saying you personally engaged in theological swordplay, I’m saying that such actions will win no one. The Holy Father changed nothing of substance in the Church’s teaching and the broader public misinterpreted it either accidentally or on purpose. But to that I say who cares? The Truth remains the Truth. If people are more willing to listen, even for just one second longer than they did in the past, because of his pastoral style that’s all to the better.

Repetition of TMI (too much information) presents as a burden to the receiver of the information, in the case where opposing positions ensued with members reading the struggle of a married guy with unacted SSA, disclosing at the same time having an existing satisfactory sex life with his beloved wife with whom he is raising children. Then two others chimed in being in the same or similar situation. It may indeed be an issue but it does not come across as something that would be too much. This isn’t like the situation of simpleas above.

Anyone complaining about “too much information” in an anonymous forum needs to seriously re-evaluate himself. I don’t know anyone here and no one knows me. I only take the good from here and none of the burdens. Individuals who are unable to do that should perhaps not be on these kinds of forums where people spill out all kinds of intimate details of their lives that they would never do if their names and faces were attached to them.

As for it in real life, I think we’ve already addressed that issue multiple times and you and I are more or less in agreement.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I am not SSA but speaking for my own temptation to lust even as a married man…

the evil of lust preys on inordinate shame, fear, and isolation. A person may not be so much dwelling on these issues as simply dealing with them the best way possible. Dealing with them requires getting them out in conversation in the light of day. These are the best antiseptics for these temptations… honest and open discussion with other good Christians. Not with the neighbor kids or at the parish picnic, of course not. But with the appropriate people at the appropriate time. The people I would discuss these things with are not what I would call sympathetic, rather they give me the straight up Christian advice I need.

These temptations must be dealt with or they can swallow an isolated person into a black hole. There are huge numbers of people enslaved to lust. Look at the statistics on internet usage. More often than not, overcoming an obsession with or inclination to SSA, or overcoming lust in general, requires other people to be involved. Most people don’t overcome it in isolation.

I know that is hard for most people who are not ensnared in SSA or lust to imagine talking about these things. And it is humiliating for the tempted ones to realize we need the help of others, but the humiliation can be a blessing that turns us back toward Christ.

I concede it is not easy for one not ensnared as you say with SSA or lust to understand the difficulty of one who is. Thank you for your explanation which helps a lot.

Guilt and shame are not necessarily useless. They can be mechanisms with which future or continuing transgressions and risqué situations that could harm one’s relationship with his / her spouse are kept at bay.

And yes, I understand that discussing the temptation in appropriate company and setting has a potential to defuse the situation and to manage attendant feeling of isolation and anxiety.

May you keep wanting to turn back to Christ in times of temptation.
,

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Guilt and shame are not necessarily useless. They can be mechanisms with which future or continuing transgressions and risqué situations that could harm one’s relationship with his / her spouse are kept at bay.

This is definitely true. But people with sexual addictions have a dysfunctional approach to guilt and shame. Instead of driving them to not sin, the shame of these addictions drives them to hide their sins better. Which buries the whole thing in more darkness, thus increasing the need for light.

They cannot develop a functional approach to shame by trying. They need God’s intervention, which comes in the form of a loving community.

 

[One_point]

I empathize with the difficulty of your situation. I don’t think you are being selfish in wanting to offload on CAF about being same sex attracted.

The paragraph in my post was discussing happily married individuals to their wives with children, who feel compelled to air their feelings of SSA on this board, giving the impression that they inordinately dwell on such thoughts. To a number of members reading the postings, this begs the question, why or what for? Why dwell on these feelings, which could not be helpful.
,

I’m sorry if I misunderstand you, but what is wrong with sharing one’s personal struggles with sin and vices via-a-vis certain virtues like chastity, charity, humility and so on, with fellow Catholics on a forum like CAF or some other forum? Just because one is happily married, it surely is no guarantee that they are somehow insulated from struggles with chastity of the SSA sort or some other sort? If a person feels the need to seek advice or support in his struggles on such a forum, it must be a point of struggle for them, not just about dwelling on it. They will share it and you can offer advice in charity when they do, for example, you can advice that with struggles of chastity, its always best not to dwell on it, to maintain a fruitful and busy life filled with positive things, to say a hail mary or a decade of the rosary when the temptation presents itself and then to redirect the mind to other pursuits etc. But if they dont share, you cannot offer help or advice, so why should you as a Catholic, complain that they are sharing? Moreover, some other person who is struggling with the same issue may stumble on this advice and it can help them, there are more who read without joining than active participants here, isn’t that what things like these are for? Apostolate? This is a safe environment to do so because it is populated by Catholics who are a little more knowledgable about their faith and tend to try to live it so one might not be misled into committing the sins, and these catholics can give advice on the actual struggle, point one to resources where they can find help etc. I honestly fail to see why the sharing of ones struggles on his or her personal journey into holiness, which should be our own struggles, each one of us, should be a cause of complaints. My own thought was that sharing ones orientation everywhere, in contexts where it’s irreleveant or lacks purpose, such as where its not about the struggle to live chastity and aimed at that purpose; that is what I find disturbing. But talking to other Catholics who may offer support or advice? How could that possibly be inappropriate?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The paragraph in my post was discussing happily married individuals to their wives with children, who feel compelled to air their feelings of SSA on this board, giving the impression that they inordinately dwell on such thoughts. To a number of members reading the postings, this begs the question, why or what for? Why dwell on these feelings, which could not be helpful.
,

Hi InSearchofGrace,

My ears were ringing.

I wonder what you think my goals are. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I am especially concerned about the Church’s witness to young men and women who experience SSA, and also concerned about the Church’s witness to the gay community. Surely you agree that these are important things, even if we disagree about how to approach them. Well, I myself have SSA and have a little bit of insight into the gay community, and this has given me a unique perspective on how to approach evangelizing them.

Compare: a person who was once a “goth” kid himself has unique and helpful insights about how to convert goth kids to Christianity.

Now you – along with a number of others – say I “inordinately dwell on thoughts” about homosexuality. Surely this is true, since I’m a sinner. Maybe even my posts on this forum sometimes are manifestations of such inordinate dwelling. And your point in saying this is … what? What particular thing that I have said that is objectively sinful? We could try and find impure motives in me all day, but I really don’t see the point in assuming my motives are impure.

In this respect, you say that I have given “too much information” in some way. I wonder what you mean by that. Is saying I’m attracted to men too much information? Is saying I have a good sex life with my wife too much information? (I assure you this second piece of information is not irrelevant at all, since the culture very strongly sends the message that it is impossible for a man who is dominantly attracted to other men to have a rewarding married sex life.) What exactly have I said that sounds to you like I am indulging in writing about my sin?

I’m here because I want the Church to better care for young people who are like I was once. Please grant me the dignity of believing what I say.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This thread is what prompted me to register, so I could join into the conversation. I particularly like the way you explained the situation, Bucket. I struggle with sexual sin myself (ephebophilia, masturbation and pornography), and I have met chaste men (and those trying to be chaste) who struggle with a wide variety of sexual desires. There are only a couple of close friends who know. As you mention, I generally only share/discuss in-person, when it is in an S-group…which I no longer attend. Anonymous fora are a different situation.

I don’t understand why those who struggle with same sex attraction believe their struggle is more noble or more acceptable than other sexual desires. What is it about homosexuality that makes it different? Why must people identify themselves in that manner?

I don’t know the genesis of my disordered sexual desires, but I have had them in adulthood as long as I can remember. I wouldn’t identify myself as ephebophile. I’m a Catholic man, working out my salvation with fear and trembling.

Hi there, Lucianus!

I don’t think struggling with SSA is more noble than any other sexual struggle, and I very much sympathize with you in your struggle, which is much like my own, in terms of the shame attached to it. Of course, SSA is more “acceptable” than many other struggles, because the society now accepts homosexuality. From my perspective, this means that we have failed to keep this in the closet, and now we need public witnesses to the truth about homosexuality.

It won’t do if some kid learns (from the culture) to call himself “gay”, and then when he gets to college and considers joining a church, the church immediately says “stop calling yourself gay!” The boy will immediately feel rejected, and won’t listen to another word. Down the line, after he comes to know Jesus, I agree that we might ask him why he’s labeling himself this way. But no self-defined gay person will ever be converted by being told not to be gay!

When we send a cultural message like “Don’t be gay”, we are sending a message of rejection. This is precisely why Francis’s comments, and his use of the word “gay”, are so very refreshing. They show that the Church is willing to be an evangelistic entity in a powerful way. It may be true that no one should call themselves “gay”. But I don’t see any reason, publicly, to broadcast that truth. (We are to be wise as serpents, innocent as doves.)

As for your own struggle, I encourage you to be open to the movement of the Holy Spirit in your life – may God free both of us from the bonds of sin and shame, that we might live as His sons in a way that glorifies Him!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’m sorry if I misunderstand you, but what is wrong with sharing one’s personal struggles with sin and vices via-a-vis certain virtues like chastity, charity, humility and so on, with fellow Catholics on a forum like CAF or some other forum? Just because one is happily married, it surely is no guarantee that they are somehow insulated from struggles with chastity of the SSA sort or some other sort? If a person feels the need to seek advice or support in his struggles on such a forum, it must be a point of struggle for them, not just about dwelling on it. They will share it and you can offer advice in charity when they do, for example, you can advice that with struggles of chastity, its always best not to dwell on it, to maintain a fruitful and busy life filled with positive things, to say a hail mary or a decade of the rosary when the temptation presents itself and then to redirect the mind to other pursuits etc. But if they dont share, you cannot offer help or advice, so why should you as a Catholic, complain that they are sharing? Moreover, some other person who is struggling with the same issue may stumble on this advice and it can help them, there are more who read without joining than active participants here, isn’t that what things like these are for? Apostolate? This is a safe environment to do so because it is populated by Catholics who are a little more knowledgable about their faith and tend to try to live it so one might not be misled into committing the sins, and these catholics can give advice on the actual struggle, point one to resources where they can find help etc. I honestly fail to see why the sharing of ones struggles on his or her personal journey into holiness, which should be our own struggles, each one of us, should be a cause of complaints. **My own thought was that sharing ones orientation everywhere, in contexts where it’s irreleveant or lacks purpose, such as where its not about the struggle to live chastity and aimed at that purpose; **that is what I find disturbing. But talking to other Catholics who may offer support or advice? How could that possibly be inappropriate?

The part I bolded in your post is what I am concerned about as well. Prodigal Son directed a post to me raising similar questions, so I will just continue there to explain.

,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Hi InSearchofGrace,

My ears were ringing.

I wonder what you think my goals are. I think I’ve been pretty clear that I am especially concerned about the Church’s witness to young men and women who experience SSA, and also concerned about the Church’s witness to the gay community. Surely you agree that these are important things, even if we disagree about how to approach them. Well, I myself have SSA and have a little bit of insight into the gay community, and this has given me a unique perspective on how to approach evangelizing them.

Compare: a person who was once a “goth” kid himself has unique and helpful insights about how to convert goth kids to Christianity.

Now you – along with a number of others – say I “inordinately dwell on thoughts” about homosexuality. Surely this is true, since I’m a sinner. Maybe even my posts on this forum sometimes are manifestations of such inordinate dwelling. And your point in saying this is … what? What particular thing that I have said that is objectively sinful? We could try and find impure motives in me all day, but I really don’t see the point in assuming my motives are impure.

In this respect, you say that I have given “too much information” in some way. I wonder what you mean by that. Is saying I’m attracted to men too much information? Is saying I have a good sex life with my wife too much information? (I assure you this second piece of information is not irrelevant at all, since the culture very strongly sends the message that it is impossible for a man who is dominantly attracted to other men to have a rewarding married sex life.) What exactly have I said that sounds to you like I am indulging in writing about my sin?

I’m here because I want the Church to better care for young people who are like I was once. Please grant me the dignity of believing what I say.

Yes, your posts across various threads on your admitted bisexual condition, married happily to a wonderful woman raising a family, no complaints supposedly with that aspect, also inserting where, when you can about your unresolved SSA, came across as a needless complaint and manifestation of inordinate dwelling on the unproductive for you. It would appear you are feeding the tendency if not lust for homosexual activity. What one feeds grows, no? You sing praise to the ordered married family life that you are fortunate to have, and yet sound as if you wish life could be more. I am trying to understand.

Yours is unlike the struggle of homosexuals who are unable and can not see themselves taking a woman as a sexual partner, much less in marriage. They therefore live without, as simpleas related in this thread. You and others like you are able to exercise an option. Good for you, you have an option and chose rightly.

Perhaps you need to tell, to release build up of pressure, so you never or are not tempted to go further. And that may be something for those of us who wish to understand motivation(s) at play. It just seemed that you were submitting attention getting TMI posts, making an opening where you can to air same, irrelevant or unnecessary in the context at times. Sorry that I can’t go back to the instances where it struck me this way because I have to re-read a lot of pages on several threads first to illustrate it. I need to run to do prep work for a class I am conducting tonight for our parish. At any rate, your postings elicited scrutiny by others who likewise gleaned inordinate homosexual thoughts on your part.

Please explain how exactly would engaging in open discussion of the details of your kind of struggle, which are TMI to a number of CAF readers, for our Church to better care for young people who are like you once were. Josh Weed, a Mormon faithful to moral teaching on sexuality, with the same or similar struggle as yours and whom you probably have read much about, is a therapist. It appears he is in a setting where he is able to help Mormon youth and others with same sex attraction struggles with his personal witness.

My apologies if my statements seem not to afford you dignity of believing what you say. It is not my intention.
,

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Yes, your posts across various threads on your admitted bisexual condition, married happily to a wonderful woman raising a family, no complaints supposedly with that aspect, also inserting where, when you can about your unresolved SSA, came across as a needless complaint and manifestation of inordinate dwelling on the unproductive for you. It would appear you are feeding the tendency if not lust for homosexual activity. What one feeds grows, no? You sing praise to the ordered married family life that you are fortunate to have, and yet sound as if you wish life could be more. I am trying to understand.

You say that I am airing a “needless complaint.” Perhaps you don’t understand. My SSA is not “satisfied” by marriage, and it doesn’t go away because of marriage. I’d love for it to go away, and I continually ask God to make it go away. I DO wish that life could be more, because I don’t like dealing with such a temptation, and I don’t like various ways that my SSA manifests itself in my life. I am thankful, however, for God’s faithfulness to me throughout this struggle.

If the above counts as a complaint, then it seems to me that any transparent statement of “where I’m at” would count as a complaint.

Yours is unlike the struggle of homosexuals who are unable and can not see themselves taking a woman as a sexual partner, much less in marriage.

OK, so I’m not sure why this matters. My experience was like theirs, before I started dating my wife.

Perhaps you need to tell, to release build up of pressure, so you never or are not tempted to go further. And that may be something for those of us who wish to understand motivation(s) at play. It just seemed that you were submitting attention getting TMI posts, making an opening where you can to air same, irrelevant or unnecessary in the context at times. Sorry that I can’t go back to the instances where it struck me this way because I have to re-read a lot of pages on several threads first to illustrate it. I need to run to do prep work for a class I am conducting tonight for our parish. At any rate, your postings elicited scrutiny by others who likewise gleaned inordinate homosexual thoughts on your part.

I understand that you’re busy, but I would encourage you to either take the time to tell me which of my posts were “TMI posts”, or explain to me why you feel comfortable criticizing me on a public forum without any stated evidence. Looking back through the thread, you yourself seem to be quite offended when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim. I encourage you to live up to your own standards.

Please explain how exactly would engaging in open discussion of the details of your kind of struggle, which are TMI to a number of CAF readers, for our Church to better care for young people who are like you once were. Josh Weed, a Mormon faithful to moral teaching on sexuality, with the same or similar struggle as yours and whom you probably have read much about, is a therapist. It appears he is in a setting where he is able to help Mormon youth and others with same sex attraction struggles with his personal witness.

It’s funny that you mention Josh Weed. I have nothing but fondness for the man, but have you read his blog? If you think I give too much information, you should try him out. And I’m not sure why you would accuse me of obsessing over my same sex attraction, but imply that he is not obsessing.

Speaking of being in a setting where one is able to help others with same-sex attraction with one’s personal witness, that is exactly how I see Catholic Answers Forum. Multiple times on CAF I have worked with SSA young adults through private messages to help them work through their experience of SSA, in the context of church teaching.

 

[The_Bucket]

As has been noted repeatedly, sexual sin loves to live in the dark. It thrives in shame. It flourishes when one attempts to suppress it. This is true for any kind of sexual sin be it pornography use, masturbation or just general lust after either members of the opposite or the same sex. Why is stating this as a fact “TMI”? How is this excessive information especially compared to half of the stuff in the “Family Life” section of this forum where people discuss intimate details of their sex lives or talk about cervical mucus or about how a relative has bipolar disorder or about how they might be contemplating suicide?

Prodigal Son saying “I have homosexual tendencies and I wish they would go away, but they won’t, so I think it’s best for everyone to talk frankly about it” is far from being selfish or egotist or attention-seeking. Did he tell anyone else not to share their struggles?

Like I said before, this is the Internet. People are really, really revealing on the Internet because it’s an anonymous medium. Sometimes that manifests itself in pretty disgusting ways (see Weiner, Anthony) but this kind of catharsis, the kind we see on these forums, is good! It’s up to each of us to take only the good from these kinds of forums and leave the potential burdens.

I shudder to think of what it would be like if someone approached some select posters from this thread in real life and disclosed their struggles of this nature. I fear that they would feel the cold hand of rejection and that’s precisely the opposite of what Francis, and by extension Christ, wants us to do.

Could you imagine Christ telling the prostitutes, tax collectors and other sinners to whom He preached and to whom He ministered that He didn’t want to be “burdened” by their troubles? I daresay with that attitude He never would have taken the sins of the entire world upon Himself on the cross. No one is saying that anyone here has to take the struggle off the backs of his brother or sister… but at the very least allow them to unburden themselves. Just don’t let it affect you. It’s pretty easy actually since you don’t actually know them!

 

[clem456]

As has been noted repeatedly, sexual sin loves to live in the dark. It thrives in shame. It flourishes when one attempts to suppress it. This is true for any kind of sexual sin be it pornography use, masturbation or just general lust after either members of the opposite or the same sex. Why is stating this as a fact “TMI”? How is this excessive information especially compared to half of the stuff in the “Family Life” section of this forum where people discuss intimate details of their sex lives or talk about cervical mucus or about how a relative has bipolar disorder or about how they might be contemplating suicide?

Prodigal Son saying “I have homosexual tendencies and I wish they would go away, but they won’t, so I think it’s best for everyone to talk frankly about it” is far from being selfish or egotist or attention-seeking. Did he tell anyone else not to share their struggles?

Like I said before, this is the Internet. People are really, really revealing on the Internet because it’s an anonymous medium. Sometimes that manifests itself in pretty disgusting ways (see Weiner, Anthony) but this kind of catharsis, the kind we see on these forums, is good! It’s up to each of us to take only the good from these kinds of forums and leave the potential burdens.

I shudder to think of what it would be like if someone approached some select posters from this thread in real life and disclosed their struggles of this nature. I fear that they would feel the cold hand of rejection and that’s precisely the opposite of what Francis, and by extension Christ, wants us to do.

Could you imagine Christ telling the prostitutes, tax collectors and other sinners to whom He preached and to whom He ministered that He didn’t want to be “burdened” by their troubles? I daresay with that attitude He never would have taken the sins of the entire world upon Himself on the cross. No one is saying that anyone here has to take the struggle off the backs of his brother or sister… but at the very least allow them to unburden themselves. Just don’t let it affect you. It’s pretty easy actually since you don’t actually know them!

Indeed. Struggles with sin give Satan an opening to cause fear and isolation.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. (the very first cover-up)
8Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and **they hid from **the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

“Where are you?” God calling each of us to drop our fear and isolation and come forth.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

You say that I am airing a “needless complaint.” Perhaps you don’t understand. My SSA is not “satisfied” by marriage, and it doesn’t go away because of marriage. I’d love for it to go away, and I continually ask God to make it go away. I DO wish that life could be more, because I don’t like dealing with such a temptation, and I don’t like various ways that my SSA manifests itself in my life. I am thankful, however, for God’s faithfulness to me throughout this struggle.

If the above counts as a complaint, then it seems to me that any transparent statement of “where I’m at” would count as a complaint.

OK, so I’m not sure why this matters. My experience was like theirs, before I started dating my wife.

Except you were and are not completely turned off by having sexual relations with a woman. I admit I find it difficult to understand bisexuality, the longing to be sexually active with both opposite and same sex. A wife normally feels betrayed upon discovering her husband’s infidelity with another woman. But discovering a hubby’s unabated longing for or worse, actual infidelity with a man? I would say the effect would be an emotion beyond description!

I understand that you’re busy, but I would encourage you to either take the time to tell me which of my posts were “TMI posts”, or explain to me why you feel comfortable criticizing me on a public forum without any stated evidence. Looking back through the thread, you yourself seem to be quite offended when someone makes an unsubstantiated claim. I encourage you to live up to your own standards.

First off, I did not write of a categorical claim, as with the poster to whom I reacted for making the claim that Catholics on CAF have described gays and lesbians to be demonic. My statement verbatim was

It just seemed that you were submitting attention getting TMI posts, making an opening where you can to air same, irrelevant or unnecessary in the context at times.

In addition, unlike that poster, I did not say I am unwilling to review pages of postings on record to find just where and how the impression of TMI formed at least with me. I recall you and Tigg had the same line of argument somewhere. As soon as I have a block of time to do a re-read back of your postings, I will do it and get back to you. It is not my habit to shoot and run, and I do make an effort to engage people with opposing view with fairness. When I misspeak, I am not so proud that I can’t admit it. Or admit my limitations in understanding.

We know that all pronouncements made in the threads are subject to challenge. Ultra sensitive people don’t do well in the fora. Some are stringent or get so forceful with their propositions which are wrapped with their ego. They could not be wrong, or so they think!

It’s funny that you mention Josh Weed. I have nothing but fondness for the man, but have you read his blog? If you think I give too much information, you should try him out. And I’m not sure why you would accuse me of obsessing over my same sex attraction, but imply that he is not obsessing.

I don’t really follow him, I just read a few things that’s out there about or by him. Having a blog, he most likely reveals TMI. At least, he dishes his TMI on his own turf and those that wish to read it choose to go to his blog site. Except for a new CAF section, Catholic Answers Blog (where links are provided to invite specific discussions from articles by CAF staff and writers ), CAF as a whole is not a blog site.

Did I say you were obsessing with SSA or dwelling on such thoughts? This may be hairsplitting but to me, there is a shade of difference between obsess and dwell. To dwell is to linger over, pondering on a thought. I did pose that what one feeds grows, meaning when the preoccupation is grown, it could very well be an obsession.

Speaking of being in a setting where one is able to help others with same-sex attraction with one’s personal witness, that is exactly how I see Catholic Answers Forum. Multiple times on CAF I have worked with SSA young adults through private messages to help them work through their experience of SSA, in the context of church teaching.

Therapists like Josh Weed, I would think, do in person consults, where he could apply his personal witness to clients who bring up their need to manage homosexuality issues to him. He hung his blog site shingle for the audience to come in or stay out.

My suspicion is that a lot of counsel is offered and evangelizing happens behind the scenes, in the PMs. Not with me, though, as I don’t use it that much. So my PMs never need cleaning.

The thing is, it is never known if counseling and evangelizing in PMs are in the direction of bringing the fullness of truth and Church teaching to those needing it, or against said direction, therefore people could potentially and unwittingly be led away from the truth and Catholic teaching. CAF members that are agnostics, declared and undeclared dissident Catholics who don’t follow Church teaching on abortion, homosexuality, etc., are able to use personal witness or to further an agenda just the same via PMs.

Sorry if you find this offending, but if I were a young person conflicted with unwanted SSA, I would not look to a faceless Internet person with a made up user name, and background, even if offered, that is unverifiable, for specific advice through PMs. I would rather stick with reading a collection of opinion in open forum, although competing views could be confusing to the seeker of advice and he or she would need to be discerning.

 

[Brendan_64]

CAF members that are agnostics, declared and undeclared dissident Catholics who don’t follow Church teaching on abortion, homosexuality, etc., are able to use personal witness or to further an agenda just the same via PMs.

Yes, I’ve had an experience of this, but from a dissident Catholic on the ‘conservative’ end of the spectrum, quite subtly promoting the agenda of sedevacantists.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Sorry if you find this offending, but if I were a young person conflicted with unwanted SSA, I would not look to a faceless Internet person with a made up user name, and background, even if offered, that is unverifiable, for specific advice through PMs. I would rather stick with reading a collection of opinion in open forum, although competing views could be confusing to the seeker of advice and he or she would need to be discerning.

Many young men come to CAF to talk about their attraction toward men, when they are too afraid to talk to anyone in person. Of course, they need to be told, continually, that they can’t get real permanent help on an internet forum. They need to make themselves vulnerable to a real person, who can then show them Christ’s love.

It is TERRIFYING to make oneself vulnerable in this way. I grew up in a loving and close family, and I did not tell anyone about my SSA until I was 23! No one. And no one found out, either.

That is the background to what I’m saying in this thread. If we don’t tell such young people that we **want **to know their struggles, and tell this to them bluntly, they will hide it. And then they will “come out” and decide to act on their attractions. Not a good thing.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Yes, I’ve had an experience of this, but from a dissident Catholic on the ‘conservative’ end of the spectrum, quite subtly promoting the agenda of sedevacantists.

Thanks for speaking up.

There is a long time current member, an admitted gay partnered with the love of his life, as he attests, challenging Catholic teaching in open forum, persuasive with arguments and full of advice to struggling new members with homosexuality issues. What do you think he says in PMs on invitation and in communication with said new members seeking answers and help? One can only figure that any counsel offered would be inconsistent with the moral teaching of the Church on homosexuality.

CAF is an apostolate that ironically serves as a hunting ground for and attracts homosexual agenda drivers to spread anti-Catholic views not just in open forum but also in the back room of private messaging. What did a few posters above say, sin likes to hide?

At any rate, as long as homosexual agenda drivers do not violate the charity rule, these kind of members manage to be resident CAF members, some seemingly intent and skillfully baiting and then reporting good Catholics who end up getting suspended or banned.
,

 

[The_Bucket]

That is the background to what I’m saying in this thread. If we don’t tell such young people that we **want **to know their struggles, and tell this to them bluntly, they will hide it. And then they will “come out” and decide to act on their attractions. Not a good thing.

Bingo. And that’s not to say that they should go up to random people or that listening to these travails is something for everyone. I think someone like you would be an excellent candidate to help others who are like you. Likewise I try to help others who are in my shoes. It’s the 12th step after all…

At any rate, getting the struggle out in the open is hugely important. Ultimately we need to direct these people to bring their struggles to Christ who can ease their burdens… but we are called to be His hands, His arms, to be part of His Mystical Body. Just as our preaching to the poor and the destitute will have no effect without meeting their bodily needs so also we must meet the emotional and psychological needs of those plagued with sexual temptations, mental disorders and/or both before we can preach the Gospel to them.