Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

[InSearchofGrace]

:idea:

Prodigal, Bucket, clem and others,

Have to do some paper work but could not resist submitting this post.

You could be a resource or support group on your own under CAF, as with the Prayer Group, OCD/Scrupulosity Group, etc.

Forming a group that invites old and new CAF members interested in shining a light on the suffering of the SSA conflicted, the ever homo / bi curious and lustful in the married and unmarried crowd, and sex and porn addicts. Since you feel strongly that there is benefit to disclosing and discussing sexuality struggles in open forum where anonymous people are continually debating, such group may just provide the appropriate Internet context.

There is a an obvious common view you share, wanting to have a catharsis venue for yourselves and at the same time offering help to others in similar situations, maintaining consistency with the truth of the gospel and teaching of the Church.

Of course, you are not foregoing the ability to participate in threads, but you could say to those seeking, who find themselves first in active participation in the threads, “hey come step over here — you have like company, you are not alone.”

Just a suggestion, this is not meant to offend.
,

 

[clem456]

:idea:

Prodigal, Bucket, clem and others,

Have to do some paper work but could not resist submitting this post.

You could be a resource or support group on your own under CAF, as with the Prayer Group, OCD/Scrupulosity Group, etc.

Forming a group that invites old and new CAF members interested in shining a light on the suffering of the SSA conflicted, the ever homo / bi curious and lustful in the married and unmarried crowd, and sex and porn addicts. Since you feel strongly that there is benefit to disclosing and discussing sexuality struggles in open forum where anonymous people are continually debating, such group may just provide the appropriate Internet context.

There is a an obvious common view you share, wanting to have a catharsis venue for yourselves and at the same time offering help to others in similar situations, maintaining consistency with the truth of the gospel and teaching of the Church.

Of course, you are not foregoing the ability to participate in threads, but you could say to those seeking, who find themselves first in active participation in the threads, “hey come step over here — you have like company, you are not alone.”

Just a suggestion, this is not meant to offend.
,

No offense whatsoever, that is a great idea and I am surprised it is not already a reality here. Maybe it is and I am not aware.
I personally would not join and SSA specific group because that is not my specific issue. Some of the ideas cross boundaries but it is good to have people who suffer with the exact same stuff sharing strategies.
The impurity group here does that, although for some reason it is not very active since some changes were made. It’s been very helpful to me.
The posts in these groups are hidden from the rest of the forum.

And addressing the issue raised above that inappropriate back room agendas are pushed on members by private messages…
I have been a member here for about a year and a half. I have posted extensively in the impurity support group, and I have never once been approached with an inappropriate message. Nothing even approaching inappropriate. It has been nothing but good.

 

[Brendan_64]

At any rate, getting the struggle out in the open is hugely important. Ultimately we need to direct these people to bring their struggles to Christ who can ease their burdens… but we are called to be His hands, His arms, to be part of His Mystical Body. Just as our preaching to the poor and the destitute will have no effect without meeting their bodily needs so also we must meet the emotional and psychological needs of those plagued with sexual temptations, mental disorders and/or both before we can preach the Gospel to them.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I stated I would get back to you as soon as I had time to review your back posts,

…

which illustrate your attention getting TMI posts, making an opening where you can to air same, unnecessary in the context at times. I re-read this thread that has upwards of 800 posts, 62 from you. To understand your position, I also reviewed a current thread you opened under the Morality SubForum, titled “Married Men with SSA, Should We Be Publicly Open About It?” All 300+ posts in that thread, a third of posts from you, offering information on your situation. There, you were exploring to write a book vs a blog a la Josh Weed, and received some affirmation on the use of such a project but also a lot of opposition because of its potential impact to your children and questions on your motivation.

This thread is about the Pope’s much debated remark on “who am I to judge gays” as related to gay priests, and the gay lobby in and out of the Church. You and a number of other posters pose that there needs to be an open discussion to shine a light on the suffering of those with same sex attraction. The theory strongly proposed is (more) attention needs to be drawn to the homosexual condition, and individuals with said struggle are served with open or widened discussion in our community of men and women. Those in opposition are of the opinion that the homosexual temptation and inclination need not be regarded as if they are most unique and oppressive, compared to all other human suffering.

In Post 57, a poster in discussing the value attached to the sacrifice that a priest makes in his vow of celibacy raised that a faithful Catholic who wants to be a priest should not value SSA. You deemed it necessary to offer the fact that you are a man attracted to other men, though happily married to a stunningly beautiful woman, and that you feel instinctively that there is something to be gained in enjoying a sexual relationship with another man. While you acknowledge it is false, a lie from the devil, you maintain that because your homoerotic feelings persist, the Church and her members need to do more. In the ensuing posts, mention was made about the confessional, the ministries (Courage), specific support groups, which don’t seem to be enough.

Since you brought your situation in the discussion of a thread on the Pope’s remarks pertaining to gay priests, I and others on this side of the argument ask, what more could you possibly want? What is the use of putting discussion of (your) SSA on the front burner, the same question in substance by Tigg, fix, and others? Your answers are not convincing because, at least for you, you are fortunate to have exercised the choice of marrying a woman you met with whom you have mutual love, you are enjoying intimacy with her, your wife, raising a family together, etc. Unlike with a “straight up gay,” to use the phrase used by another member in that other thread, who has no choice but to reject the Catholic Church to actualize one’s sex potential with another human being, which would be of the same gender. Further, if I am correct you disclosed having a support group and are under the guidance of a spiritual director. But, you insist, there has to be more …

The above led to the impression I formed which I believe is reasonably reached. There are plenty of CAF members with a thorn on their side (myself included) with pain and suffering that can only be managed, with little or no prospect of resolution in this earthly life. The confessional, prayers, avoidance of occasions of the particular sin, support of a spiritual direction and support group afford plenty of release of the build up of pressure or anxiety in having unwanted SSA feelings and dealing with the temptation. There is also as an option which I suggested for you and others in the same predicament, the forming of an intra-CAF support / discussion group. You can even narrow it to “Happily Married with SSA” or “Is Marriage an Option for the Same Sex Attracted?” kind of group. This can be an answer to those out there including the youth who have no one to talk to as you and others say, who thereby turn to the Internet to talk to faceless people with made up names offering personal witness nevertheless, and who might just find their way to CAF.
,

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not other members.

Please stay on the topic of the original post

I have and will suspend members who ignore this warning.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Let’s say for the sake of argument that someone comes on here and posts something that is blatantly uncharitable, something that even a Westboro Baptist would say is uncharitable to homosexuals. How would you know that they are actually a Catholic and not a troll posing as a Catholic?

Usually, those can be flushed out. I’ve been blogging for a long time and I grew up with the internet.

Fake people are not as cloaked as they sometimes think, in particular on a site like this which would require a lot of time, energy and investment.

It’s pretty clear to me that some Catholics are misguided and need to form their consciences better on a myriad of issues, but someone being fake to discredit the Church and posting nasty things----I’d like to think we have the skills to locate and expose that. Besides, it’s hard to get away with posting nasty things on here regardless of intent.

 

[Lela_Loxx]

As a committed Catholic and Lesbian, I am in favour of this:

eyeofthetiber.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-declares-homosexuality-obligatory-for-all-catholics-new-york-times-reports/

 

[porthos11]

As a committed Catholic and Lesbian, I am in favour of this:

eyeofthetiber.com/2013/07/29/pope-francis-declares-homosexuality-obligatory-for-all-catholics-new-york-times-reports/

Um, you do realize that this is a satire site, right?

 

[Jarr]

Too much negativism is put into what Pope Francis said by many who don’t understand. People are people regardless. We should never judge our brothers, we are not here to do that. Nowadays, many of us have so much HATE, that we are really blind. Lets continue to Pray for understandings, wisdom to accept. It’s not our call to judge others, before you do, clean your house first. Peace to all.

Blinders Must Come Off!

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Too much negativism is put into what Pope Francis said by many who don’t understand. People are people regardless. We should never judge our brothers, we are not here to do that. Nowadays, many of us have so much HATE, that we are really blind. Lets continue to Pray for understandings, wisdom to accept. It’s not our call to judge others, before you do, clean your house first. Peace to all.

Blinders Must Come Off!

Judging our brothers: not in our job description

Judging actions as sinful: absolutely fair game (hey, if for no other reason than not speaking the Truth risks losing the souls of those involved)

 

[simpleas]

I didn’t hear the pope mention sin in the link on post 157.

I hear the pope saying to people who are gay, if you seek God I will not judge your life style.

Remember, its only God who will judge us in the end, not the pope/church. If we live as we think we should,(be it in sin or not, well we’re all sinners in some respect anyway), ask for forgiveness, help one another, and not judge each other, that’s as much as we can do in my opinion.

Please don’t think that i am trying to indorse living in sin, i am not, i am however still learning about my faith.

 

[Tigg]

:idea:

You could be a resource or support group on your own under CAF, as with the Prayer Group, OCD/Scrupulosity Group, etc.

Forming a group that invites old and new CAF members interested in shining a light on the suffering of the SSA conflicted, the ever homo / bi curious and lustful in the married and unmarried crowd, and sex and porn addicts. Since you feel strongly that there is benefit to disclosing and discussing sexuality struggles in open forum where anonymous people are continually debating, such group may just provide the appropriate Internet context.

There is a an obvious common view you share, wanting to have a catharsis venue for yourselves and at the same time offering help to others in similar situations, maintaining consistency with the truth of the gospel and teaching of the Church.

Of course, you are not foregoing the ability to participate in threads, but you could say to those seeking, who find themselves first in active participation in the threads, “hey come step over here — you have like company, you are not alone.”

Just a suggestion, this is not meant to offend.

I love your common-sense, charitable approach and really hope that those inclined to discuss their condition do it in the proper venue. To do so in an inappropriate setting could indeed, tempt others to judge even if only on a subconscious level.

Or more accurately, it could give us pause as to their motivation to make it public when clearly this is an intense personal matter which not everyone wants to hear or is truly capable of understanding. I do see how dialogue could be beneficial to the suffering, but surely they can also understand how that might be construed as a purely selfish need on their part which thrusts others into an uncomfortable or difficult situation. Charity all around, I say!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I love your common-sense, charitable approach and really hope that those inclined to discuss their condition do it in the proper venue. To do so in an inappropriate setting could indeed, tempt others to judge even if only on a subconscious level.

Or more accurately, it could give us pause as to their motivation to make it public when clearly this is an intense personal matter which not everyone wants to hear or is truly capable of understanding. I do see how dialogue could be beneficial to the suffering, but surely they can also understand how that might be construed as a purely selfish need on their part which thrusts others into an uncomfortable or difficult situation. Charity all around, I say!

Aren’t we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It’s a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that “not everyone wants to hear”. I agree, but I’m not sure how our desires not to hear about another person’s struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don’t think one person saying “I’m gay and celibate” in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are “capable of understanding”, I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their “otherness”.

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don’t see any wiggle room here.

That said, I definitely do appreciate your concern in this matter, and the fact that you are looking for a way to help!

 

[Lochias]

CAF is equipped with a search feature – have at it.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

A cop out it was.

Aren’t we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It’s a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that “not everyone wants to hear”. I agree, but I’m not sure how our desires not to hear about another person’s struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don’t think one person saying “I’m gay and celibate” in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are “capable of understanding”, I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their “otherness”.

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don’t see any wiggle room here.

That said, I definitely do appreciate your concern in this matter, and the fact that you are looking for a way to help!

Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG

 

[clem456]

A cop out it was.

Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG

The discussion about too much information has been all over the map with people making assumptions.
First it was said that it is good to talk about issues. Fine. People immediately objected, assuming that people would air unnecessary details. No one has really asserted that it’s ok to make unnecessary details public. So, the discussion is comparing apples and oranges. Some are assuming the worst and trying to prevent it, others observing correctly that it is healthy to discuss problems in the appropriate settings. What else is there to say?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The discussion about too much information has been all over the map with people making assumptions.
First it was said that it is good to talk about issues. Fine. People immediately objected, assuming that people would air unnecessary details. No one has really asserted that it’s ok to make unnecessary details public. So, the discussion is comparing apples and oranges. Some are assuming the worst and trying to prevent it, others observing correctly that it is healthy to discuss problems in the appropriate settings. What else is there to say?

Thanks. I directed the question to Prodigal (also to others who have not reacted as you have) as to the suggestion of an intra-CAF support group where the conflicted of his particular struggle can go for help, as another option to the confessional, outside support / prayer groups, guidance under spiritual direction, etc.

If the matter has reached a sort of silent concurrence, or just unvoiced disagreement, I gladly let this go.
,

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Prodigal,

What is your reaction of position to my suggestion in Post 817? Are you willing to take the discussion to the Back Fence or wherever appropriate?

As you know I responded to your challenge that I, as you said, live up to my standards in providing the basis of the impression I reached about TMI in open forum even when not relevant or necessary in a thread. Fortunately, you read the post before it was removed, a prerogative the moderator has.

ISoG

Hi ISoG,

Sorry that post slipped through the cracks. I like the idea of a support group type thing on CAF, though I don’t really have time to set it up. Most of my comments here have been aimed the broader community, though, about how the Church as a whole can make people with homosexual tendencies feel more welcome. That’s not something that a support group would help with.

Thanks for the idea, though! I’ve also been thinking about making a sort of group blog, to accomplish some of these aims. We’ll see. Of course, I don’t have time to do that, either!

 

[Tigg]

Aren’t we called to be selfish, when we truly need something, and it will not harm others to give it to us? Selfishness is not an intrinsic vice. It’s a way of loving someone who needs to be loved.

You say that “not everyone wants to hear”. I agree, but I’m not sure how our desires not to hear about another person’s struggle are morally relevant. There are boundaries of politeness, certainly but I don’t think one person saying “I’m gay and celibate” in passing, for example, would be at all impolite.

As to whether people are “capable of understanding”, I wonder how anyone would ever learn to understand another person without encountering their “otherness”.

Jesus would want to hear and be capable of understanding. We are called to be like Jesus. I don’t see any wiggle room here.

It is a false Christianity to imply that one may rightfully impose himself on another because of a misguided need. True charity is not coerced – it flows from the heart and is directed by God. There are proper boundaries to be observed in our interaction with one another, and forcing anyone to be in a position they do not wish to be (by TMI) is, at the very least, uncharitable and disrespectful of them. And God does not call us to minister to everyone in every situation. We are to be charitable at all times to each other, so what purpose is served when the gay person insists that others know private information (just in passing as you state above?) A true Christian will welcome you whether or not you are gay - it should hold no relevance. And if one does not know what is not their business to know, there is little chance of rash judgment. If gays feel a compulsion to speak of their situation, then I would think a private support group of like-minded people would truly be the answer.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

It is a false Christianity to imply that one may rightfully impose himself on another because of a misguided need.

People in need constantly imposed themselves on Jesus. He rewarded their selfishness.

But perhaps you misinterpret the need. The need of a gay person is the need to feel dignified as a child of God, despite being gay. This need cannot be served by them participating in a community where they hide this fact. The need is certainly not to talk about their sexual dysfunctions in any detail.

A true Christian will welcome you whether or not you are gay - it should hold no relevance.

Is pointing out that “you should not tell us you are gay, even if you are” very welcoming?