Pope gets radical and woos the Anglicans

[Aramis]

Would it fulfill your Sunday obligation though? Excuse my ignorance but isn’t the Anglican Church protestant and there for valid orders and thus a licit consecration absent?

Peace.

The “Anglican Use Missal”, aka Anglican Useage Roman Missal, is a Catholic version of the modern Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

The TAC is using the older Knott Missal, which is both clser to the Trent Mass, and is more “catholic” as well by comparison to the BCP. (In many ways, they are to the Anglican Communion as the SSPX are to the Roman Church.)

The TAC’s Mass should require just a few small changes, if they are permitted to retain it. (Which I suspect is one of their conditions.)

Even if they do not retain the Knott Missal (or a modification of it), they can use the Anglican Usage of the Roman Mass.

 

[BobP123]

Well yes, I would rather attend a NO in Latin over the Anglican Use too (provided it is ad orientum; communion on tongue, kneeling; Chant is plentiful, altar BOYS, etc.), but how many parishes in the US offer the NO in Latin, and in this way? Not many! If it came down to your run-of-the-mill NO, or an Anglican Use Mass, which is always very reverant and solemn (and is always offered in the manner above), I would pick the Anglican Use seven days a week and twice on Sunday.

If you got them now and it’s legit, go. I guess the heart of the Mass, the words of Consecration, mean diddly squat to you.

 

[dolphinlove]

I pray for the day the whole of Christianity unite.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Would it fulfill your Sunday obligation though? Excuse my ignorance but isn’t the Anglican Church protestant and there for valid orders and thus a licit consecration absent?

Peace.

Anglicans are not in communion with Rome, but Anglican Use parishes are. They are Catholic. Read here for further information:

anglicanuse.org/index.htm

 

[SemperFidelis]

If you got them now and it’s legit, go. I guess the heart of the Mass, the words of Consecration, mean diddly squat to you.

Have you ever read the words of the Consecration? Clearly not. Here it is:

THE LITURGY OF THE EUCHARIST

During the Offertory a psalm, hymn or anthem may be sung. The Celebrant, standing at the altar, takes the paten with the bread and, holding it slightly raised above the altar, says quietly,

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

If there is no music, the people respond
Blessed be God for ever.

The Deacon (or the Priest) pours a little water into the chalice, saying quietly,

By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.

Then the Celebrant takes the chalice and, holding it slightly raised above the altar, says quietly,

Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

If there is no music, the people respond
Blessed be God for ever.

The Priest bows and says quietly,

Lord God, we ask you to receive us and be pleased with the sacrifice we offer you with humble and contrite hearts.

He may now incense the offerings and the altar, and afterwards the Thurifer may incense the people. The Priest, standing at the side of the altar, washes his hands saying quietly,

Lord, wash away my iniquity; cleanse me from my sin.

Standing at the center of the altar, he faces the people and says,
Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.

The people respond,
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his name, for our good, and the good of all his Church.

The people kneel. With hands extended, the Priest sings or says the Prayer over the Gifts, after which the people respond
Amen.

(cont’d)

 

[SemperFidelis]

The Great Thanksgiving
The Celebrant, whether Bishop or Priest, faces the people and sings or says,

The Lord be with you. R. And with thy spirit.
Lift up your hearts. R. We lift them up unto the Lord.
Let us give thanks unto our Lord God.
R. It is meet and right so to do.

Then, facing the altar, the Celebrant continues,

It is very meet, right, and our bounden duty, that we should at all
times, and in all places, give thanks unto thee, O Lord, holy Father, almighty, everlasting God.

Here a Proper Preface is sung or said on all Sundays, and on other occasions appointed.

Therefore with Angels and Archangels, and with the company of heaven, we laud and magnify thy glorious Name; evermore praising thee, and saying,

Here follows the Sanctus and Benedictus.

HOLY, HOLY, HOLY
Lord God of Hosts:
Heaven and earth are full of thy glory.
Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High.
Blessed is he that cometh in the Name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the Highest.

The Celebrant continues with the Canon of the Mass.
MOST MERCIFUL FATHER, we humbly pray thee, through Jesus Christ thy Son our Lord, and we ask, that thou accept and + bless these gifts, these presents, these holy and unspoiled sacrifices.

We offer them unto thee, first, for thy holy Catholic Church: that thou vouchsafe to keep it in peace, to guard, unite, and govern it throughout the whole world; together with thy servant N. our Pope, and N. our Bishop, and all the faithful guardians of the Catholic and Apostolic faith.

Remember, O Lord, thy servants and handmaids (N. and N.) and all who here around us stand, whose faith is known unto thee and their steadfastness manifest, on whose behalf we offer unto thee: or who themselves offer unto thee this sacrifice of praise, for themselves, and for all who are theirs: for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their salvation and safety: and who offer their prayers unto thee, the eternal God, the living and true.

United in one communion, we venerate the memory, first, of the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ, of Joseph her spouse; as also of thy blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, (James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Thaddaeus: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystys, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian) and of all thy
Saints; grant that by their merits and prayers we may in all things be defended with the help of thy protection.

We beseech thee then, O Lord, graciously to accept this oblation from us thy servants, and from thy whole family: order thou our days in thy peace, and bid us to be delivered from eternal damnation, and to be numbered in the fold of thine elect.

Vouchsafe, O God, we beseech thee, in all things to make this oblation blessed, approved and accepted, a perfect and worthy offering: that it may become for us the body and blood of thy dearly beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who, the day before he suffered, took bread into his holy and venerable hands, and with eyes lifted up to heaven unto thee, God, his almighty Father, giving thanks to thee, he blessed, broke, and gave it to his disciples, saying:

“TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT IT:
THIS IS MY BODY
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU”

Likewise, after supper, taking also this goodly chalice into his holy and venerable hands, again giving thanks to thee, he blessed, and gave it to his disciples saying:

“TAKE THIS , ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT:
THIS IS THE CUP OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT.
IT WILL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL
SO THAT SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.”

(cont’d)

 

[SemperFidelis]

The Celebrant says, Therefore we proclaim the mystery of faith:
And the people respond:

Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.
The Celebrant continues,

Wherefore, O Lord, we thy servants, and thy holy people also,
remembering the blessed passion of the same Christ thy Son our Lord, as also his resurrection from the dead, and his glorious ascension into heaven: do offer unto thine excellent majesty of thine own gifts and bounty, the pure Victim, the Holy Victim, the immaculate Victim, the holy Bread of eternal life, and the Chalice of everlasting salvation.

Vouchsafe to look upon them with a merciful and pleasant countenance: and to accept them, even as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the gifts of thy servant Abel the Righteous, and the sacrifice of our Patriarch Abraham: and the holy sacrifice, the immaculate victim, which thy high priest Melchisedech offered unto thee.

We humbly beseech thee, almighty God: command these offerings to be brought by the hands of thy holy Angel to thine altar on high, in sight of thy divine majesty: that all we who at this partaking of the altar shall receive the most sacred Body and Blood of thy Son, + may be fulfilled with all heavenly benediction and grace.

Remember also, O Lord, thy servants and handmaids (N. and N.), who have gone before us sealed with the seal of faith, and who sleep the sleep of peace. To them, O Lord, and to all that rest in Christ, we beseech thee to grant the abode of refreshing, of light, and of peace.

To us sinners also, thy servants, who hope in the multitude of thy
mercies, vouchsafe to grant some part and fellowship with thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: with John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, (Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecelia, Anastasia), and with all thy Saints: within whose fellowship we beseech thee, admit us, not weighing our merit, but granting us forgiveness; through Jesus Christ our Lord;

Through whom, O Lord, thou dost ever create all these good things; dost sanctify, quicken, bless, and bestow them upon us.

By whom, and with whom, and in whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end.

The people respond, Amen.

(cont’d)

 

[SemperFidelis]

The Celebrant continues
And now, as our Savior Christ hath taught us, we are bold to say.

People and Celebrant
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who tresspass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever. Amen.

The Celebrant breaks the Sacred Host. A period of silence is kept.

Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.
Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;
therefore let us keep the feast.
Alleluia, alleluia, alleluia.

In Lent, the following is said.

Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
Therefore let us keept he feast.

Here is sung the Agnus Dei.

O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
have mercy upon us.
O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
have mercy upon us.
O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
grant us thy peace.
The following prayer is said by all.
We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord whose property is always to have mercy. Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the Flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his Blood, that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.

Showing the Chalice and Host to the people, the Celebrant says,

The Gifts of God for the People of God.
Behold the Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world.
The people respond,

Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst come under my roof, but speak the word only, and my soul shall be healed.
Holy Communion is administered by intinction on the tongue with the words, The Body (and Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you in everlasting life, and the Communicant responds, Amen.

During the ministration of Communion, Psalms, hymns, or anthems may be sung. After Communion, the Celebrant says,

Let us pray.

The people join in saying this prayer…

Almighty and everliving God, we most heartily thank thee for that thou dost feed us, in these holy mysteries, with the spiritual food of the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ: and dost assure us thereby of thy favor and goodness towards us; and that we are very members incorporate in the mystical body of thy Son, the blessed company of all faithful people; and are also heirs, through hope, of thy everlasting kingdom. And we humbly beseech thee, O heavenly Father, so to assist us with thy grace, that we may continue in that holy fellowship, and do all such good works as thou hast prepared for us to walk in; through Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be all honor and glory, world without end. Amen.

The Bishop when present, or the Priest, gives the blessing, first saying,

The Lord be with you.
R. And with thy spirit.
The peace of God, which passeth all understanding, keep your hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God, and of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord; and the blessing of God Almighty, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, be amongst you, and remain with you always. Amen.

The Deacon, or the Celebrant, shall dismiss the people, saying

The Mass is ended, depart in peace.
R. Thanks be to God.
In Eastertide
The Mass is ended, depart in peace, alleluia, alleluia.
R. Thanks be to God, alleluia, alleluia.

 

[SemperFidelis]

BobP123, Pope John Paul II forced them to change to words of the Consecration to make it more in line with the NO. Clearly you can see the similarities. Most Traditional Catholics I know would regard this liturgy as more Catholic than the NO. I don’t understand what your problem is with it. I agree it’s not a TLM, but it’s better than 99% of the NO’s I’ve been to. The Anglican Use Mass is always offered ad orientum, altar boys only, communion on the tongue at the altar rail, hymns, etc. The Mass is completely and totally valid, according to the Pope. If you want to read the entire Order of Mass according to the Anglican Use, read here:

atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html

and read this for more information about the Anglican Use Parishes:

anglicanuse.org/index.htm

 

[BobP123]

BobP123, Pope John Paul II forced them to change to words of the Consecration to make it more in line with the NO.

He forced them to change it to “for all”? And now the Vatican wants to change the NO to “for many.” What’s going on with that?

Thanks but either way, I’ll stick with what Christ said.

 

[Aurelius]

Peace+
An Anglican rite, with both married and celibate priests, has been in use in the Roman Catholic Church for many years. The Eucharistic celebration is beautiful and dignified. The Anglicans already had the whole gamut of sacred texts in English set to Gregorian or Anglican chant. I would be very pleased to see something like it as the new Roman Mass, but not in order to “rattle liberal cardinals.” That is hardly a good reason. I am writing from East-Central Wisconsin which was once called the Episcopalian “Biretta Belt” where the reignig Pope would be commemorated in the liturgy and his encyclicals read and explained. Then came the ordination of women to destroy the whole road to unity. Several of the clergy and Episcoalians I knew became Catholics and went on to ordination.
Aurelius

 

[AJV]

He forced them to change it to “for all”? And now the Vatican wants to change the NO to “for many.” What’s going on with that?

They are waiting until the new English translation comes out at which time they will conform the wording to that.

 

[Joab_Anias]

The “Anglican Use Missal”, aka Anglican Useage Roman Missal, is a Catholic version of the modern Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

The TAC is using the older Knott Missal, which is both clser to the Trent Mass, and is more “catholic” as well by comparison to the BCP. (In many ways, they are to the Anglican Communion as the SSPX are to the Roman Church.)

The TAC’s Mass should require just a few small changes, if they are permitted to retain it. (Which I suspect is one of their conditions.)

Even if they do not retain the Knott Missal (or a modification of it), they can use the Anglican Usage of the Roman Mass.

So how would this be any different if other Evangelicals or Protestants just up and began using the 1962 Roman Missal? They all use our Bible. They still wouldn’t have valid orders and their sacraments would thus be fake right? They have no apostolic succession and isn’t that one of the necessary marks of the true Church? I am Catholic but if I go imitate the TLM in my own home wouldn’t it be no an illicit sacrilege because I am not Ordained even though I am confirmed by a real Bishop. See my point? We must remember that the reformation was a revolt. Only from within is the Church renewed/reformed.

Peace.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Anglicans are not in communion with Rome, but Anglican Use parishes are. They are Catholic. Read here for further information:

anglicanuse.org/index.htm

Good link, thanks.

Yes I understand. I have visited Anglican Churches before. It’s been about 10 years now though since I did the ecumenical thing though I still remember. Also I know of priests who came over and remained married, though they are not able to pastor while others who were widowed or never married are now pastors doing important work. Hopefully they will all come to valid ordination and that will seal the deal. Until then let us pray Gods will be done.

I feel the direction of the Church can only come from its center. Personally, as a Vat I - Vat II kid I view both ultra traditionalism and ultra liberalism to be schism causing mistakes along the same lines as those of the Levites. We are fed spiritually in different ways. Some more liberally and others more conservatively. I have great Charismatic friends, some of who are fed more liberally and others more traditionally while I tend to be on the more conservative side. I just see different gifts of the Holy Spirit at work. Hopefully our conservative or liberal tendencies do not inhibit those gifts. When I think of types we can look at the ministries within the Church; certain gifts fit in certain places from pastoring to social justice and defense of the innocent. To each his own gifts right? I am grateful the Church nourishes them all.

Peace brother.

 

[SemperFidelis]

He forced them to change it to “for all”? And now the Vatican wants to change the NO to “for many.” What’s going on with that?

Thanks but either way, I’ll stick with what Christ said.

Come on BobP123, I agree with you here. I would much rather attend a TLM over anything. And I would probably choose a Latin NO “done right” over an Anglican Use Mass. However, an Anglican Use Mass is very beautiful and reverant, and I would much rather go to one, over your average NO, which constitutes probably a good 95% of the Masses in the US. That was my point. As to “pro multis,” I’m sure the Anglican Use will change it to “for many,” along with the NO. You can’t blame them for that, it was forced on them by the ICEL translation. It was either that, or stay out of communion with Rome. I’m glad they came back to the Church. They are Traditional, and have a Traditional liturgy, a liturgy far more Traditional than probably 99% of the NO’s. What more do you want from them? Sheesh.

 

[Aramis]

So how would this be any different if other Evangelicals or Protestants just up and began using the 1962 Roman Missal? They all use our Bible. They still wouldn’t have valid orders and their sacraments would thus be fake right? They have no apostolic succession and isn’t that one of the necessary marks of the true Church? I am Catholic but if I go imitate the TLM in my own home wouldn’t it be no an illicit sacrilege because I am not Ordained even though I am confirmed by a real Bishop. See my point? We must remember that the reformation was a revolt. Only from within is the Church renewed/reformed.

Peace.

In coming in to union, one can expect that they will be reordained. If they come in as a particular church (sui iuris or not), rather than a collection of individuals &/or parishes, one can expect that they will be reordained in one or several celebrations; Each bishop can be expected to be reordained, and may then have to reordain his priests.

What makes them different from any anglican off the stree is that this is not a parish or two, but a whole archiepiscopal synod that has come to realize their own deficiencies. So they probably have invalid orders, that is EASILY cured.

 

[Aramis]

So how would this be any different if other Evangelicals or Protestants just up and began using the 1962 Roman Missal? They all use our Bible. They still wouldn’t have valid orders and their sacraments would thus be fake right? They have no apostolic succession and isn’t that one of the necessary marks of the true Church? I am Catholic but if I go imitate the TLM in my own home wouldn’t it be no an illicit sacrilege because I am not Ordained even though I am confirmed by a real Bishop. See my point? We must remember that the reformation was a revolt. Only from within is the Church renewed/reformed.

Peace.

In coming in to union, one can expect that they will be reordained. If they come in as a particular church (sui iuris or not), rather than a collection of individuals &/or parishes, one can expect that they will be reordained in one or several celebrations; Each bishop can be expected to be reordained, and may then have to reordain his priests.

What makes them different from any anglican off the stree is that this is not a parish or two, but a whole archiepiscopal synod that has come to realize their own deficiencies. So they probably have invalid orders, that is EASILY cured.

The situation is no different from the Ruthenians or the Ukrainians, or the Melkites, aside from century and expected levels of Romanization/Latinization are LOWER.

 

[Joab_Anias]

In coming in to union, one can expect that they will be reordained. If they come in as a particular church (sui iuris or not), rather than a collection of individuals &/or parishes, one can expect that they will be reordained in one or several celebrations; Each bishop can be expected to be reordained, and may then have to reordain his priests.

What makes them different from any Anglican off the stree is that this is not a parish or two, but a whole archiepiscopal synod that has come to realize their own deficiencies. So they probably have invalid orders, that is EASILY cured.

I agree though I wouldn’t emphasize “easily”.

The situation is no different from the Ruthenians or the Ukrainians, or the Melkites, aside from century and expected levels of Romanization/Latinization are LOWER.

This I don’t understand in relation to Eastern Catholics because Anglicans left the Roman Church in protest while Eastern Catholics subsisted apostolically along side her. The Eastern Catholic Churches retained valid apostolic ordination while in schism and as such it’s not an entirely accurate comparison. Hence the difference between schism and heresy where by schism is divergent but heresy is more grave.

Peace.

 

[Aramis]

I agree though I wouldn’t emphasize “easily”.

This I don’t understand in relation to Eastern Catholics because Anglicans left the Roman Church in protest while Eastern Catholics subsisted apostolically along side her. The Eastern Catholic Churches retained valid apostolic ordination while in schism and as such it’s not an entirely accurate comparison. Hence the difference between schism and heresy where by schism is divergent but heresy is more grave.

Peace.

I tried to delete that last paragraph, but the forum didn’t let me.

I meant it in the spirit of the time in which they came into union, for at that time, Orthodox were not considered to be valid, save by coming into union. But I realized, a bit too late, that few would have the needed knowledge to grasp that

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Each bishop can be expected to be reordained, and may then have to reordain his priests.

they will never allow protestant bishops to automatically become catholic bishops. the catholic church doesn’t allow married bishops. it would be different if they were celibate and had valid apostolic sucession. they are not a true church like the orthodox churches.

this will be a problem for TAC and i don’t expect them to come into communion as a whole because they will need to assimilate into the roman rite more then they probably want to.

they should adopt the extraordinary use of the roman rite and ditch the anglican use. or better yet, use the sarum rite. that would be cool. the anglican use is a dead end.