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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Boy, the Pope is on a roll this week !
Jim
Pope: God sent his son to show mercy to sinners, not punish them
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Jim
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PraiseChrist
Guest
Very true. It’s easy to have a distorted image of God, especially those who lack in Hope, and if we base our spiritual life based on our emotions or feelings, like feeling guilty over nothing.
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styrgwillidar
Guest
… and that forgiveness was so important that when Christ instituted His Church He granted it the power to forgive sins vice punish them as well. An authority the Jewish church did not have. One of the lessons to be drawn from the adulteress Jesus was asked to condemn- that sinners were to be forgiven and urged to repent and ‘sin no more’.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Keep in mind when Jesus gave the Church the authority to forgive sins, he didn’t make that exclusive of God’s forgiveness.
As the Catechism says; “Only God Forgives Sin.”
Jim
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styrgwillidar
Guest
Never meant to imply anything contrary to that. But it is a significant difference bestowing that authority on the Church.
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Katherine438
Guest
Thank you Pope Francis … I so needed to hear this message this week.
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JimG
Guest
Not to be unecumenical, but a view of God as forgiving rather than intent on punishment is precisely one of the great differences between Christianity and Islam.
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JosieN
Guest
I think I am not really getting the meaning of this message. Are we to understand from this that mercy is most important and God’s punishment is less important, or is it that we are not to worry about the punishment part of the teachings we learned about in the past and that we should not be so fearful? I always thought fear of the Lord was a good thing for us to believe.
Also, I could not find in the Catholic Catechism anywhere that God sent His son to show mercy to sinners. Here is what I found.
CCC 457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70
Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71
CCC 458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love: "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."72 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."73
Also, I could not find in the Catholic Catechism anywhere that God sent His son to show mercy to sinners. Here is what I found.
CCC 457 The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:70
Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?71
CCC 458 The Word became flesh so that thus we might know God’s love: "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."72 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."73
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J_Peterson
Guest
God doesn’t do the punishing. We do that ourselves by walking into Hell. Jesus said that the only people that go to hell are those that follow the fallen angels there. Hell wasn’t even created for humans so it wasn’t even part of God’s plan to punish us (we did that ourselves).
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JosieN
Guest
I meant the punishment of our sins after we die. The sins we have committed will be counted. We will either go to heaven, purgatory or hell. This is Catholic teaching. If there wasn’t a punishment for sin, why bother confessing them or worrying about them in this life?
We know there is a punishment and the good will be rewarded and the bad will not. If the bad walk into hell, it is because of their sins. What difference does it make if they walk into hell for the sins they have committed or are sent there? It is not that God wants to punish us, but that we have rejected His teachings and punishment is part of the consequences. God sent His Son into this world to bring salvation, but we must ask for it, as in the Fatima prayer.
" O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy."
The point I was making is that I think fear of God is important for our salvation and that we should worry about the consequences of the sins we have committed.
To be saved from the fires of hell we need to ask for forgiveness and mercy from Jesus for our sins, and try not to sin anymore. That is what I was taught.
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HolyCrusader007
Guest
Great reminder. God bless the Pope.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
St John Paul II clarified the teaching.
He said, God does not send anyone to hell, they go there by themselves, because they reject God.
In other words, they reject God willfully, even after death.
We go to Confession to confess our sins, because first we are sorry for offending God, and when we sin, we harm the body of Christ, which is the Church. We go to be reconciled and to receive the sanctifying grace to help us avoid sin in the future.
If you go to Confession to avoid God’s wrath, you’re missing the point of the sacrament, but it’s not your fault, but the flaws in how it was taught.
Jim
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JosieN
Guest
Here is what I found in the Catholic Catechism.
"1470 In this sacrament, the sinner, placing himself before the merciful judgment of God, anticipates in a certain way the judgment to which he will be subjected at the end of his earthly life. For it is now, in this life, that we are offered the choice between life and death, and it is only by the road of conversion that we can enter the Kingdom, from which one is excluded by grave sin.79 In converting to Christ through penance and faith, the sinner passes from death to life and "does not come into judgment."80
The punishments of sin
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man.“85”
I believe this means there is eternal punishment of sin after death, and that when we are forgiven we are free from this eternal punishment. Based on this I think that what I was taught is correct and that fear of eternal punishment is not a bad thing, as it will keep us on the right path towards salvation,
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JimR-OCDS
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Where did you get that understanding of Islam? It is not accurate. Allah is all forgiving if the faithful repent of their misdeeds and ask God for forgiveness. One of the names of God, in fact, is Al-Ghaffar, the Forgiving.
Lots of Scriptural references speaking of Allah’s forgiveness.
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openmind77
Guest
This is true. In Islam, I believe, you still have some chance of being saved after being sent to hell.
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JimG
Guest
When Christians are killed with Allah being invoked upon the killing, I am not feeling the forgiveness.
Why Christians and Muslims Worship Different Gods
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JosieN
Guest
In these passages from the New Testament in the Bible, it does not appear that way.And in all, its not God who does the punishing, but ourselves.
Jim
Rom 12:19
" Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”"
Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Matthew 3: 11-12
“I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in his hand. He will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
As I would imagine that Muslims are not ‘feeling the forgiveness’ when horrendous things have been done to them in the name of Christ. Regardless, both of our faiths must hold us to peace and forgiveness. And we are created by and are loved by the same God, I would expect that the standards are the same for both of us.
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JosieN
Guest
Are you certain the God they believe in is the same God that created us? Our God has three persons, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Their god has only two persons. This is a huge difference. God cannot be both a two person God, and three person God.
Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet but do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, they included Jesus in the Koran but changed the story, and we were warned about religions that would pervert the gospel of Christ by St. Paul in Galatians Chapter 1.
St Paul taught us
Galatians 1:6-10
“I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.”
When another religion says Jesus is a prophet and not the Son of God isn’t that perverting the gospel of Christ? Mohamed received his messages from an angel, and St, Paul refers to an angel giving a gospel besides the one preached to them, in Galatians. It is like he was sending us a warning even before Mohamed had been born to receive his messages from the angels about Allah and to write the Koran for this new religion.
Thus, since it does not appear to be likely that they are the same God, I do not think you will ever get the same standards for both.
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