Pope: God sent his son to show mercy to sinners, not punish them

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JosieN said:
There is no one or the other, because it is all connected by love, love that is given and love that cannot exist for those who have rejected God and the saving graces of His Son.

What is most important to me is my love for God, I want God to love me too, but if I fail on my part by not obeying His commandments or accepting His Son as my Lord and Savior, then I have failed in my love for Him, and there is a place called hell, where you are separated from God’s love for all eternity and that is your punishment.

The children of Fatima were given a vision of hell, and they described as a fire burning, other saints have had visions also and gave the same description. I believe them as I know they are saints and would not lie to us. Jesus Christ came to this world to save us from the fires of hell and because of God’s Son and His sacrifice I can be forgiven if I am sorry for my sins and ask for His mercy and forgiveness, and this brings me closer to His love and eternal life in heaven with Jesus.

Now I will ask you, what is more important God’s love or the punishment given to those who reject Him and His Son and His teachings? If you choose God’s love then you also choose the punishment as equally important, as this is separation from His love for all eternity. If God’s love is this important to you, you will not want to be separated from it would you?
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God’s love is everything.

Without it, we would not exist, period.

And you are correct that love for God is important, and is the same as God’s love for us in that without it, we will not be able to be in His presence, which is the consequence for sin.

However, understand that although we fail, it does not mean we will go directly to hell if we die before we make it to confession.

God knows we’ll fail, and he also knows our weakness.

God’s revelation isn’t 100% and we often commit acts outside of being conscious of His presence.

It’s the fallen state we live in.

The one true condemning act is when God has revealed Himself to a person, and they consciously reject Him. However, even here, God in His mercy will provide the means for them to repent and be saved, I have little doubt about it.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
God’s revelation isn’t 100% and we often commit acts outside of being conscious of His presence.

It’s the fallen state we live in.

Jim
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I am not sure what you mean by this statement. What sinful acts are committed outside of being conscious of His presence? This could mean many sins. What does" outside of being conscious of His presence mean"? Am I just being to rigid in my beliefs again, what should I assume you are talking about?
 
I have always wondered where God’s mercy is with the annulment process in the Catholic Church. it seems more like punishment to me.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I have always wondered where God’s mercy is with the annulment process in the Catholic Church. it seems more like punishment to me.
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Sometimes what seems like a punishment is actually God calling a person to become closer to Him. Many times when things do not go as we like in this world, we turn to Jesus for the answers, I have noticed this in my life. So what may seem like a punishment at the time is actually a blessing. It does not feel like a blessing during this time, but when one looks back over the years, it becomes clear as to why God allowed certain things to happen.

I always remind myself that the saints did not have easy lives. some of the saints had a parent die at a young age, like St. Therese, the Little Flower, because of this she turned to our Holy Mother in heaven with her prayers, and eventually became a saint, you can see how losing her mother was not punishment from an unmerciful God. Our faith in these times is what is important, never give up hope, and offer your sufferings to God. It makes a huge difference. I hope I have not upset you with my words, I only meant to give you hope.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
God’s love is everything.

Without it, we would not exist, period.

And you are correct that love for God is important, and is the same as God’s love for us in that without it, we will not be able to be in His presence, which is the consequence for sin.

However, understand that although we fail, it does not mean we will go directly to hell if we die before we make it to confession.

God knows we’ll fail, and he also knows our weakness.

God’s revelation isn’t 100% and we often commit acts outside of being conscious of His presence.

It’s the fallen state we live in.

The one true condemning act is when God has revealed Himself to a person, and they consciously reject Him. However, even here, God in His mercy will provide the means for them to repent and be saved, I have little doubt about it.

Jim
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This seems to be the way my friend feels about God. He fully admits that he cheated on his wife. AS a business man he has no problem cutting corners, he admits the cheats and he lies, but as a Christian (he isnt Catholic) he doesnt worry about it cause God has already forgiven him. Since God loves him, as a parent loves a child and no matter what that parent will always love, God loves us the same way.

Does God still hold us accountable?
 
I asked my Muslim friend about the God she prays to and she told me they believe in the Holy Spirit and that it is part of God’s being. I told her we believe in three persons in one God, I made the sign of the cross for her and explained what it meant. She said that was not correct, only the Father part which is God and the Holy Spirit were part of God. But she said God sent the Holy Spirit to Mary and this is how the prophet Jesus came to this world, but even though He was conceived this way, He is not God. I said if the Holy Spirit is God then that would make Jesus God also, she said no it does not. So you see my understanding is a bit confused, because what they believe is confusing.

They also believe Jesus will come on the last day to judge us, but if Jesus is not God, how can He judge us? She tells me many things from the Koran, I do not argue with her, she is a good person and tells me to pray for her. I feel badly for her, and hope one day she will find the truth and accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and her Lord and Savior.

I do not understand the Jewish religion as well as I understand the Muslim religion, so I do not feel I can comment on it, but I believe that the Catholic religion has always told us that one must believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God to be saved, and they do not believe this. At least that is my understanding. As to who will be in heaven, only God knows for sure. I think our job on earth is to pray for the conversion of souls, especially Muslims and Jews, I believe this will help many souls get to heaven.
 
philipl said:
This seems to be the way my friend feels about God. He fully admits that he cheated on his wife. AS a business man he has no problem cutting corners, he admits the cheats and he lies, but as a Christian (he isnt Catholic) he doesnt worry about it cause God has already forgiven him. Since God loves him, as a parent loves a child and no matter what that parent will always love, God loves us the same way.

Does God still hold us accountable?
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It would seem that He used to, but no more!
 
philipl said:
This seems to be the way my friend feels about God. He fully admits that he cheated on his wife. AS a business man he has no problem cutting corners, he admits the cheats and he lies, but as a Christian (he isnt Catholic) he doesnt worry about it cause God has already forgiven him. Since God loves him, as a parent loves a child and no matter what that parent will always love, God loves us the same way.

Does God still hold us accountable?
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Good question, I wonder about this also. I also wonder why God would give us the 10 commandments, or why Jesus would send the apostles to teach the Gospel and why we are to be baptized, and go to church, and receive the sacraments etc. I think we are accountable even if some do not believe it anymore.
 
JosieN said:
I am not sure what you mean by this statement. What sinful acts are committed outside of being conscious of His presence? This could mean many sins. What does" outside of being conscious of His presence mean"? Am I just being to rigid in my beliefs again, what should I assume you are talking about?
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Outside our consciousness, is part of the three conditions for committing mortal sin.

The act must grave in nature

It must be committed with full knowledge and consent.

Often we sin outside of being conscience of his presence, and such states of sin are venial.

When we know that we are always in God’s presence, and commit the sin knowing it offends him and willingly, it’s becomes mortal sin.

Jim
 
philipl said:
This seems to be the way my friend feels about God. He fully admits that he cheated on his wife. AS a business man he has no problem cutting corners, he admits the cheats and he lies, but as a Christian (he isnt Catholic) he doesnt worry about it cause God has already forgiven him. Since God loves him, as a parent loves a child and no matter what that parent will always love, God loves us the same way.

Does God still hold us accountable?
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Of course this his rationalization to try an appease himself for the act of adultery which he commits.

It suggests, and I can’t know for sure, that he has belief in God, but does not have faith.

Jim
 
JosieN said:
Sometimes what seems like a punishment is actually God calling a person to become closer to Him. Many times when things do not go as we like in this world, we turn to Jesus for the answers, I have noticed this in my life. So what may seem like a punishment at the time is actually a blessing. It does not feel like a blessing during this time, but when one looks back over the years, it becomes clear as to why God allowed certain things to happen.

I always remind myself that the saints did not have easy lives. some of the saints had a parent die at a young age, like St. Therese, the Little Flower, because of this she turned to our Holy Mother in heaven with her prayers, and eventually became a saint, you can see how losing her mother was not punishment from an unmerciful God. Our faith in these times is what is important, never give up hope, and offer your sufferings to God. It makes a huge difference. I hope I have not upset you with my words, I only meant to give you hope.
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oh no. you didn’t upset me. I am simply falling out of love with the Catholic faith and the Church. I am tired of feeling let down.
 
JosieN said:
ringil;14160714:
Josie, the CCC states clearly that Muslims worship the same God as we and the Jews.
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I wouldn’t describe it as clear.
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It is actually very clear, as the words bolded by me below reveal. The catechism is citing the teaching of Lumen Gentium:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. *

See vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

As a dogmatic constitution, Lumen Gentium represents the highest level of teaching - equal to an *ex cathedra *declaration - which the Church is able to make, and is guaranteed by the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against her authority. That makes it non-negotiable.

Indeed.👍

In Christ,
Withburga
 
Withburga said:
It is actually very clear, as the words bolded by me below reveal. The catechism is citing the teaching of Lumen Gentium:

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God*, who on the last day will judge mankind.

See vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

As a dogmatic constitution, Lumen Gentium represents the highest level of teaching - equal to an *ex cathedra *declaration - which the Church is able to make, and is guaranteed by the promise of Christ that the gates of hell will not prevail against her authority. That makes it non-negotiable.

Indeed.👍

In Christ,
Withburga
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So you are saying this teaching is from God, and given to us through the Catholic Church, and is non-negotiable, I know what my friend tells me about the Muslim faith and their God and it does not sound like our Creators are the same God. For one thing their God does not include the Son of God. So when did this teaching arrive, after Vatican II or before?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Outside our consciousness, is part of the three conditions for committing mortal sin.

The act must grave in nature

It must be committed with full knowledge and consent.

Often we sin outside of being conscience of his presence, and such states of sin are venial.

When we know that we are always in God’s presence, and commit the sin knowing it offends him and willingly, it’s becomes mortal sin.

Jim
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So you are talking about any sin committed that could be mortal but is not because they did not commit it with full knowledge and consent. Thanks, for the explanation. I believe only God can know if it was committed without full knowledge and consent so we should be very careful to not assume it is not mortal. To die with this type of sin could be very dangerous for the soul.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Of course this his rationalization to try an appease himself for the act of adultery which he commits.

It suggests, and I can’t know for sure, that he has belief in God, but does not have faith.
Originally Posted by philipl
This seems to be the way my friend feels about God. He fully admits that he cheated on his wife. AS a business man he has no problem cutting corners, he admits the cheats and he lies, but as a Christian (he isnt Catholic) he doesnt worry about it cause God has already forgiven him. Since God loves him, as a parent loves a child and no matter what that parent will always love, God loves us the same way.
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Jim.

Using the definition you gave me of a mortal sin was this person guilty of a mortal sin? In your opinion was he conscience of God’s presence? Was it grave in nature and committed with full knowledge and consent? And do you think God has already forgiven him like he says?
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see my signature. that says all that is truly necessary to say about mercy.

regarding the Muslims and their denial of the divinity of Jesus, recall the great heresy of the 4th century that was Arianism … the heart of which was the denial of Jesus’ divinity. While it was overcome within the Church, it is clear there were those pockets of Arianism that never went away and at least one of those must have been a substantial influence on Mohammed.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
see my signature. that says all that is truly necessary to say about mercy.

regarding the Muslims and their denial of the divinity of Jesus, recall the great heresy of the 4th century that was Arianism … the heart of which was the denial of Jesus’ divinity. While it was overcome within the Church, it is clear there were those pockets of Arianism that never went away and at least one of those must have been a substantial influence on Mohammed.
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That is likely true and does explain Mohammed and the Muslims denial of the divinity of Jesus.

Regarding your signature -

“For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. --John 3:17”

The next verse goes on to say

“Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. —John 3:18”

I think this means that only those who believe in the Son of God will be saved, the rest will be condemned. What do you think it means?
 
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