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DaveBj
Guest
Fox mentioned this in this morning’s coverage, without getting into details, except that the faces of the cardinals who were listening were somewhat stony.In his annual year-end address to the Roman Curia, Pope Francis reflected on the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ and said that the Curia is a microcosm of that Body.Without daily …
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DennyO
Guest
It is not clear to me why this message had to be broadcasted to anyone outside of the group Pope Francis is trying to motivate. While I applaud the vision of Pope Francis in building up the leadership of the Church in the ways of faith and attitude, shaming them may have the opposite effect.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
I love it. Sounds like his Advent has been put to good use. We all need to do this kind of self-examination of the validity of our faith, not just munch peanuts and watch the Curia get embarrassed. That said, I think there is a real risk of institutionalizing faith in religious life unless you really stay on your toes. It is a much more dangerous temptation there than out here.
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LongingSoul
Guest
These are ‘sicknesses’ that all of us are prone to especially in any sort of group relationships. When I was working with a certain Catholic organisation who ran self development courses among other things… one of the course was specifically for groups of people that worked together such as teachers in a Catholic School or members of a STVdeP chapter or the members of a convent. In groups there are some specific toxic ‘diseases’ that can cripple or infect the body of the group that come from an individuals personal pride.It is not clear to me why this message had to be broadcasted to anyone outside of the group Pope Francis is trying to motivate. While I applaud the vision of Pope Francis in building up the leadership of the Church in the ways of faith and attitude, shaming them may have the opposite effect.
Again, trust Pope Francis to find words that can’t be misinterpreted. When being self critical we tend to be soft on ourselves rather than use the same sort of harshness we use to examine others so I reckon using the Popes phrases to self examine would be a humble and courageous way.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Because WE are the Church, not the Cardinals alone and the Pope is keeping the Church informed about what he is doing.It is not clear to me why this message had to be broadcasted to anyone outside of the group Pope Francis is trying to motivate. While I applaud the vision of Pope Francis in building up the leadership of the Church in the ways of faith and attitude, shaming them may have the opposite effect.
I pray for his safety in all of this, for there are enemies within the Church who will not stand for his changes.
Jim
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LongingSoul
Guest
I have an ever growing unease for his safely also. He is rooting out the true characters behind the pious appearances. Not unlike Jesus did in His public challenge to the hypocritical Pharisees.Because WE are the Church, not the Cardinals alone and the Pope is keeping the Church informed about what he is doing.
I pray for his safety in all of this, for there are enemies within the Church who will not stand for his changes.
Jim
Matt 23 -*13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] **
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”***
They didn’t like that at all!
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Cider
Guest
.Wow, wow, wow. He was intense!
And he didn’t mince words.
At one point, he said the church clerics were guilty of “cold-bloodedly killing the reputation of their own colleagues and brothers”.
Pretty ironic given his own list.
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Cider
Guest
We do, but it wasn’t really a self examination, it was about others, not ones self.I love it. Sounds like his Advent has been put to good use. We all need to do this kind of self-examination of the validity of our faith, not just munch peanuts and watch the Curia get embarrassed. That said, I think there is a real risk of institutionalizing faith in religious life unless you really stay on your toes. It is a much more dangerous temptation there than out here.
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FollowChrist34
Guest
Yes, ok, I didn’t see the quote about the cold-blooded killing of reputations…I guess I scanned the article too quickly. I do think that is pretty close to mud-slinging. I am revising my original enthusiasm - it’s now tempered rather than outright. I personally am talking more about the Curia practicing faith, not in terms of our current “disputes” or “changes under discussion” just in general, day to day.
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LongingSoul
Guest
I think if in the past Popes had been more confronting and public regarding the disease of sexual concupiscence within the Priesthood, many young children and especially prepubescent Catholic youth could have been saved the lifelong legacy of priestly abuse.We do, but it wasn’t really a self examination, it was about others, not ones self.
Look at the words of Jesus above to the Pharisees! “You brood of vipers!”, “you blind fools!”, “you hypocrites!”. Someone has to call a spade a spade.
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Timothysis
Guest
I always think it ironic when Pope Francis goes on about “careerism” in the Church because the first person I think of is Pope Pius XII. If there was ever a man who could be accused of careerism, it was he.
I don’t understand why the pope feels he must say things like this that are damaging against his fellow clerics. Like it or not, the Church is a bureaucracy that requires men who are familiar with the ins and outs and who know how things function, i.e. careerism. I don’t see what is so wrong about that.
I don’t understand why the pope feels he must say things like this that are damaging against his fellow clerics. Like it or not, the Church is a bureaucracy that requires men who are familiar with the ins and outs and who know how things function, i.e. careerism. I don’t see what is so wrong about that.
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Shaolen
Guest
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sirach2v4
Guest
I think we need more female (name removed by moderator)ut and representation in the Church leadership, somehow. The Vatican is many things, like a museum, a library, etc.
It is so European in makeup, that I think that may inhibit the spread of the faith in many distant places around the world.
The Church is notably and deliberately international, rather than nationalistic, like some branches of the Orthodox Church.
It is so European in makeup, that I think that may inhibit the spread of the faith in many distant places around the world.
The Church is notably and deliberately international, rather than nationalistic, like some branches of the Orthodox Church.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
I would think it depends on the intention. Are they career oriented because they think they be a force for change in the world or because they covet the trappings of office?I don’t understand why the pope feels he must say things like this that are damaging against his fellow clerics. Like it or not, the Church is a bureaucracy that requires men who are familiar with the ins and outs and who know how things function, i.e. careerism. I don’t see what is so wrong about that.
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WilT
Guest
A little correction to our leaders are justified and needed. Thank you Pope Francis!
11 My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof, 12 For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights. 13 How blessed is the man who finds wisdom And the man who gains understanding
Pro 3;11-13
who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. 8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. 9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding
Pro 9;7-10
We should all bare healthy criticism well.
11 My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof, 12 For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights. 13 How blessed is the man who finds wisdom And the man who gains understanding
Pro 3;11-13
who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. 8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. 9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding
Pro 9;7-10
We should all bare healthy criticism well.
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graciew
Guest
Well…I.appreciate the.“guide” to looking into my little “Curia” within my heart , my family , community… We are all human beings after all and it is good to admit that within every family there is some “spring cleaning” of negative aspects to do.
And , if it is none of those , we can make up our own.list to go through. And work on healing.
And , if it is none of those , we can make up our own.list to go through. And work on healing.
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Timothysis
Guest
I sincerely doubt that these men who take vows to a religious order are doing it because they covet the trappings of office. Every man has a station in life and there are as many different stations in the Church as one can imagine. I don’t really see an issue for those who are of the talent and ability to manage and run things doing just that. Even a moderate size diocese needs intelligent, capable people to make things work. Religious orders and diocesan bishops will send men for advanced degrees with the explicit intent to use and harness their knowledge and abilities for the good of the parish/diocese. I don’t see that as a bad thing. I personally think that Pope Francis should be a little more selective in some of things he says. There is no denying that his off the cuff manner has served to create confusion more than clearing an issue.I would think it depends on the intention. Are they career oriented because they think they be a force for change in the world or because they covet the trappings of office?
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LongingSoul
Guest
I read where Padre Pio could virtually see the sins on a persons soul and would let them know it in no uncertain terms in Confession. I always wished I could have access to someone who told me the worst and deadliest things on my soul so that I could have them sorted before I stood before God on judgement day. Well sometimes my daughter (who has autism honesty) will say something about a flaw or so of mine without batting and eyelid and I love her for it. No one wants to admit to their true colours. We all tend to describe them as virtues instead!We should all bare healthy criticism well.
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Beautiful
Guest
Forgetting one’s spiritual journey is a result of sin. I think that should not have been clumped into all the other spiritual sicknesses but rather placed at the end. :twocents:“spiritual Alzheimer’s” (forgetting one’s spiritual journey)
This spanking of words seems to be directed to all Catholics. It can only mean one thing from the perspective of a good parent…we all are at risk of danger. Trouble lies ahead. Hurry up and get it together!
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