Pope identifies 15 spiritual 'sicknesses' of the Curia [CWN]

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Perhaps, but the language is one of finger-pointing, not inclusive of himself.

“It’s the sickness of those who court their superiors, hoping for their benevolence. They are victims of careerism and opportunism, they honor people and not God.”

Notice the use of ‘they’ and not ‘we’? Also, since the Pope has no superiors within the Church’s earthly hierarchy, he cannot be talking about himself.
It’s not an uncommon sickness of bureacracy. Have you ever seen the English sitcom “Yes Minister” where politicians lose site of ‘the people’ they serve in pursuit of climbing the political ladder? I can imagine that a group of men in the Curia could easily fall victim to the same sickness. The Pope makes a fine example to other institutions of man in identifying the sicknesses that detract from the main purpose and mission.
 
It’s not an uncommon sickness of bureacracy. Have you ever seen the English sitcom “Yes Minister” where politicians lose site of ‘the people’ they serve in pursuit of climbing the political ladder? I can imagine that a group of men in the Curia could easily fall victim to the same sickness. The Pope makes a fine example to other institutions of man in identifying the sicknesses that detract from the main purpose and mission.
Perhaps the previous Popes should have addressed this issue, going all the way back to the Mass reformation, royalties collected from translations, and other areas addressed in the 60’s, if not before? Just a thought.
 
Yes, shame on Joe Blow for taking offense to others using their internet connection to criticize the Holy Father for doing what a Holy Father should do, i.e. taking care of his flock. But please, tell us more of what the Holy Father is apparently doing wrong.
Why don’t you ask poster JohnPaul? He has several excellent posts that actually expresses my thoughts better than my own words. And as far as “taking care of his flock,” I completely agree with JohnPaul that these statements of his are more of “finger-pointing” than of any constructive criticism. Are you aware that Pope Francis has changed the rule for awarding the honorific title of “monsignor” to only men who are 65 or older? It was an attempt of his to curtail “careerism” in the Church. A former pastor of ours has been a monsignor for many years. He is one of the most sincere and devoted priest that you will ever meet. He is also very intelligent, holds a couple of degrees and serves in several capacities, not just for his own parish, but for the diocese. I certainly hope that Pope Francis isn’t speaking to him because he couldn’t be more wrong. When one paints with a broad brush, one tends to get paint everywhere.

Also, there is no denying that Pope Francis’ off the cuff remarks are sowing confusion among the Church and the world. One only needs to look at the media’s loving reception of the things he says as positive evidence. I personally do not recall a previous pope of my lifetime who constantly had a Vatican spokesman or other apologist continually clarifying the things he says. Yes, the things he says are what the Church has and always has taught but the way he casually says things brings confusion to the listener. These types of misunderstandings did not occur to such a degree under Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict. Oh, or am I wrong to even bring this up???
 
It wasn’t too long ago that I remember quite a few Catholics saying that the vast majority of our bishops were very wise, holy, and devoted men. Now according to Pope Francis, at least, that sure doesn’t sound like the case.
 
When one paints with a broad brush, one tends to get paint everywhere.

Oh, or am I wrong to even bring this up???
I don t thing you are wrong in bringing this up , the issue is that Francis being nearly thr age of my dad , I tend to think wow ! I just get tired by looking at all the things he does , the variety of ñeople and cultures he speaks to daily and in italian which is not even his.mother tongue with media following all over…and I think I am demanding more than my own dad or Pope Francis in this case can give. And it is a lot already.
And from a family perspective as if I were your sister , I sometimes grin and bear " paint " that I may not " deserve " this time for all the times I did nit get it and deserved the whole bucket on my head.
Not talking about your monsignor , but about you and I , and how demanding one can be with a person , who happens to be the Pope.
Not evrerybody is confused as you picture btw , but you may express it and that is why we help each other out in these.forums as in different topics.
This is just what I think.
Peace.🙂
 
Not evrerybody is confused as you picture btw
Really? Do you not recall when Pope Francis said “who am I to judge?” when speaking about homosexuals and the media frenzy, as well as some Catholic circles, who thought that he was basically saying that it is no longer a sin to be a practicing homosexual?

Like I said, the things he says are what the Church has always taught but his manner in speaking leaves many confused as to what he is actually saying including his statements about the Curia.

Merry Christmas
 
And from a family perspective as if I were your sister , I sometimes grin and bear " paint " that I may not " deserve " this time for all the times I did nit get it and deserved the whole bucket on my head.
By the way, I really like this perspective!
 
Here is a good piece on what Pope Francis was doing here in this address to the Curia:
The need for reform at the Vatican is not a question that pits liberals against conservatives. Pope Benedict recognized the same need and, recognizing that he no longer had the strength to lead a major reform, stepped down to clear the way for someone more energetic. Pope Francis took office with this problem foremost in his mind.
Nearly two years into his pontificate, Pope Francis has formed a clear understanding of the task he has undertaken. He knows that the challenge will be formidable; he knows the resistance will be tough. And now we know that he is determined. If you want to know what this pontificate is all about, read today’s address.
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1067

This is what I initially thought. The criticisms in this address are NOT about the liberal/conservative spat. They are not about Synod issues at all. The Pope was elected to clean up the Curia - that is what he is doing. He is not “attacking conservatives” here. (Maybe I am the only one who was confused about that, but I doubt it.)
 
Really? Do you not recall when Pope Francis said “who am I to judge?” when speaking about homosexuals and the media frenzy, as well as some Catholic circles, who thought that he was basically saying that it is no longer a sin to be a practicing homosexual?

Like I said, the things he says are what the Church has always taught but his manner in speaking leaves many confused as to what he is actually saying including his statements about the Curia.

Merry Christmas
Being very Ignatian in my spirituality, I am one who has never been worried about anything that Pope Francis says. He himself said, "I am a son of the Church.…"
And, the comment “who am I to judge” was completely taken out of context by people who want things to change in regards to Church teaching on all matters of sexuality.
If you dig a little deeper into the comment, Pope Francis was talking about homosexual, yet chaste, members of the clergy, who have a terrible cross to bear, but are trying hard to live their life in accordance with the Church. What is so bad about that? 🤷
 
Here is a good piece on what Pope Francis was doing here in this address to the Curia:

catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=1067

This is what I initially thought. The criticisms in this address are NOT about the liberal/conservative spat. They are not about Synod issues at all. The Pope was elected to clean up the Curia - that is what he is doing. He is not “attacking conservatives” here. (Maybe I am the only one who was confused about that, but I doubt it.)
I thought this was interesting:

"At the end of his address the Pope made a bow toward the faithful servants of the Church, mentioning that clerics, like airplanes, “only make the news when they crash.” But that quick word of praise came much too late to soften the overall message. Photos of the meeting show a room full of long-faced prelates. Reports indicate that the Pope received only sparse, tepid applause. The mood of the pre-Christmas meeting was anything but joyous.

”I have to say, I didn’t feel great walking out of that room today,” one Vatican official told John Allen of Crux. Allen remarked that the Pope’s confrontational approach might by a risky one. He may want to change the way the Vatican works, but he cannot afford to alienate his entire staff or destroy office morale. He needs someone to help him carry out his plans—even his plans for reform of the Roman Curia."
 
Being very Ignatian in my spirituality, I am one who has never been worried about anything that Pope Francis says. He himself said, "I am a son of the Church.…"
And, the comment “who am I to judge” was completely taken out of context by people who want things to change in regards to Church teaching on all matters of sexuality.
If you dig a little deeper into the comment, Pope Francis was talking about homosexual, yet chaste, members of the clergy, who have a terrible cross to bear, but are trying hard to live their life in accordance with the Church. What is so bad about that? 🤷
I am perfectly aware of what Pope Francis said and how he meant it. What is so bad is that there are many who do not parse his words and arrive at erroneous conclusions about the topic. Do you think it better for the pope to sit back and just say to himself “I am right” while there are legions of people confused by what he said? As pope and pastor to the world, he should be as clear as possible in the things he says so as to avoid any confusion. Is that really too much to ask?
 
Why don’t you ask poster JohnPaul? He has several excellent posts that actually expresses my thoughts better than my own words. And as far as “taking care of his flock,” I completely agree with JohnPaul that these statements of his are more of “finger-pointing” than of any constructive criticism. Are you aware that Pope Francis has changed the rule for awarding the honorific title of “monsignor” to only men who are 65 or older? It was an attempt of his to curtail “careerism” in the Church.
The problem with “monsignor” is that is is not a job description. A priest celebrates Mass, a pastor manages a parish, a bishop manages a diocese, a cardinal elects pope. What does monsignor do? The title used to be conferred as recognition of contributions for the organization. Here’s a problem though: why the contributions towards the organization should be recognized, and those towards the mission should not? Fr. Marian Zelazek SVD made enormous contributions towards the mission (to the extent of being nominated to the Nobel Prize); yet, he has never received any ecclesiastical titles. On the other hand, Abp. Paul Marcinkus rose to the position of archbishop by pushing papers and performing shady financial transactions. And if you rate contributions towards the organization higher than those towards mission, then your employees will work for the organization rather than for the mission. To use an extreme example: if someone covers up an abuse scandal, what they are doing is very valuable for the organization (protection of assets and public image) but extremely damaging to both the victims and the mission. If you have wondered how all this could have happened – well, that’s how.
Also, there is no denying that Pope Francis’ off the cuff remarks are sowing confusion among the Church and the world.
What?

Deep corruption of the institutional Church is a public secret. I mean, you have to be extremely naive to believe that Vatican owns a gay sauna by accident; or to believe that a massive real estate fraud involving Church property never took place; or to believe that strange financial transactions executed by the Vatican bank had nothing to do with money laundering; or to believe that a mafia boss was buried next to former popes simply because he was a good man. Not to mention that individuals tied to Vatican have been implicated in kidnapping and a murder-suicide with homosexual background.

Until the arrival of Pope Francis, individuals participating in such evil schemes could shout down reports of misconduct by accusing the journalists reporting on them of anti-clericalism, and attacking the church for ulterior motives, or even handwave the accusations of impropriety by saying that you cannot run the Church on Hail Marys.

Pope Francis at least ended the hypocrisy around the evil actions and makes it clear that things are not supposed to be that way.
 
Pope Francis is doing what his namesake Saint Francis of Assisi was told to do by our Lord…rebuild my house (church)…our Holy Father knows better than anyone what is happening behind closed doors in the Vatican…he was in fact chosen by the Holy Spirit to guide the church of Jesus Christ…if some Catholics don’t like the way he is doing things maybe they need to take it up with the Holy Spirit:rolleyes:
agreed.
 
I am perfectly aware of what Pope Francis said and how he meant it. What is so bad is that there are many who do not parse his words and arrive at erroneous conclusions about the topic. Do you think it better for the pope to sit back and just say to himself “I am right” while there are legions of people confused by what he said? As pope and pastor to the world, he should be as clear as possible in the things he says so as to avoid any confusion. Is that really too much to ask?
I would agree with you to a point. Among other things is he trying to weed out the bad apples or does he want to restructure the entire Vatican for all time?
 
I believe he is just making the Curia a much** healthier group of leaders**. Nothing more.
 
I would agree with you to a point. Among other things is he trying to weed out the bad apples or does he want to restructure the entire Vatican for all time?
I have no idea. I have no problem with weeding out bad apples but the thought of restructuring the entire Vatican for all time scares me. If things were so bad, then why didn’t Popes John Paul and Benedict (especially Benedict since he has been in Rome for so long) do something about it? As Pope, all they would have had to do is say the word and it is done. Likewise, Pope Francis, having the same authority, could just say the word instead of dancing around the edges. Often times, there is a vast difference between the ideal and the real. You can’t always force one into the other.
 
I believe he is just making the Curia a much** healthier group of leaders**. Nothing more.
Not according to this quote: "Photos of the meeting show a room full of long-faced prelates. Reports indicate that the Pope received only sparse, tepid applause. The mood of the pre-Christmas meeting was anything but joyous."
 
The problem with “monsignor” is that is is not a job description. A priest celebrates Mass, a pastor manages a parish, a bishop manages a diocese, a cardinal elects pope. What does monsignor do? The title used to be conferred as recognition of contributions for the organization. Here’s a problem though: why the contributions towards the organization should be recognized, and those towards the mission should not?
In the past, it was on the recommendation of a bishop that a priest be awarded the honorific title “monsignor.” I am not the one to ask why one priest receives the title and one doesn’t; perhaps one local bishop is more generous with acknowledging one’s contributions than another. My point, though, is that it is a little silly to think that some high-minded priest would use the title monsignor as a rung by which he intends to climb the curial ladder. Again, the patron saint of “careerism” in the Church would have to be Pope Pius XII. If it was good enough for him, it should be good enough for others.
 
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