Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

[Brendan]

The Polish family does that every day?

Everyday that they choose to go to Mass.

They enjoy the community there more than at their local parish.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Why do you see that as rigidity? If they have such a love for the mass (in any form) to go daily and with their teenage children I have a hard time understanding why that’s a bad thing.

Utah Rose mentioned that the Latin Mass she a tends has few young people. The parish staffed by the FSSP that my wife frequents is litterally full of young people. At both high mass and sung masses they have a dozen altar servers from 8 to 18 who are attentive and seam to love serving. People gather after mass and there are probably 40 or more kids playing in the parish yard. There are teens, young adults, and familes from their early 20s to mid seventies. Many drive 40 minutes or more each way to attend. Why do they have the time? Because they make mass a priority.

So are you saying that people who put attending Mass so high on their priorities that they would spend that much time are rigid in a bad way? A number of families live in the area surrounding me and do not eschew attending the OF mass at the local parish when they have a need, but personal parishes were setup specifically for those with a preference so why should it be treated as something bad when they avail themselves of the opportunity?

I guess I am trying to understand why someone would have a problem with people where their faith is fed in the OF or EF. When we see kids in confirmation that say they haven’t been to confession in 6 years or mass for 2 years should we not applaud people that attend Mass every day with their children even if it’s not at the parish a few blocks away?

Why can’t we simply be happy that people have a love of any mass instead of seeing something potentially dark and ominous? It makes me sad that we can’t rejoice that Shepard are feeding their flocks without sidelong glances if it seems odd to us. God wires each of use differntly and if it is easier for one to hear His voice in one form or the other then that is a blessing and not a curse.

I understand what the Holy Father is saying, but can we (not the Pope) please not paint everyone with a passion for the EF as somehow an aberration? Let us rejoice in those who love the mass in its myriad forms.

You are making a comparison of an apple to an orange when you are comparing those who travel a distance on Sunday to attend Mass as opposed to the post of the poster to whom you respond, which references three hours every day

You will, hopefully, have occasion to regard these things very differently after you are ordained. Because it is very important to understand that an increase of religious practice is not always a good thing or a thing to be praised, as any priest would be able to tell you from his personal experiences. There are times when it is distinctly not only “not positive,” it is positively spiritually unhealthy. That is a discernment to be cautiously arrived at – but also not one to be avoided.

Frankly, I find the turn of the comments in this thread rather disturbing after the one I made two days ago. I could not, I think, agree more with the assessment of Pope Francis.

 

[Randolph]

Seems quite judgmental to make such a generalization that if young people prefer the EF, they are rigid, and that the rigidity must be hiding something. I am hoping something was lost in context or translation. My goodness, the percent of the faithful who regularly attend Mass has decreased for decades. Now let’s be critical of the motives of young people who attend the EF.

Well said. Thank you. Both the OF and EF are approved and accepted by the Church. We should rejoice in the fact that young people are excited going to either Mass.

 

[gus]

but does he mean that folk refuse to attend any other mass as then that is rigidity? and yes that does happen, here at least

Young people with a preference for The Latin Mass is so far downs the list of Church problems this article is laughable
In What alternate Universe does this even qualify as an issue

 

[Seamus_L]

I seriously doubt I would have returned to the Catholic Church nearly 20 years ago, had it not been for the Latin Mass.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

While I will not presume to speak for the Holy Father, but I have experienced a rigidity in some young priest that I know,and most of them have an affinity for the Extraordinary Form. My diocese has had an Extraordinary Form Mass for over 20 years. Which is funny, because if you talk to some of the traditional leaning people in my diocese, our former Bishop was anything but traditional and/or orthodox.
I have also experienced a lot of disrespect for legitimate authority and nastiness towards other Catholic who do not meet certain “standards”

There is a sense of unapproachableness to many of the young priests I know. May of them seem very caught up in trappings, the use of tailored cassocks, tailored clerical suits/shirts with French cuffs and Roman collars made of linen. The use of Latin in blessing people and items, even when not at an EF Mass, and some are very put off when asked to do it in English.
Many of them are slightly detached and aloof and have a hard time in groups of diverse people. We have gone from 30+ years of Fr. First name to Fr. Last name and many of the older priests (and many parishioners) do not like it at all.

My impression is that many times, these young(er) men are looking for something that was never really there. There are looking at the EF Mass now, seeing it celebrated by people who choose to and can bring all trappings into a Sunday Mass, that for the most part, a parish in 1960 would have only seen once or twice a year.

I have heard many horror stories about Mass is the late 50’s early 60’s in my area. Masses that we rushed through (everyone knew of a 15 minute Mass somewhere) People not engaged in Mass, but praying Rosaries or other devotions, infrequent reception of the Eucharist in many cases for reasons that bordered on Jansinism, the list goes on & on.

I think this rigidity the Holy Father is talking about is the wanting to look at the past with rose-colored glasses, and saying ‘Look Mass attendance was up’., Look more people went to Confession’, ‘We need to go back to this or that’, without looking to see if people are being actually fed, or if we are just making a new generation of Catholics who want to be “entertained” with nostalgia?

 

[Usige]

Because there is mass five minutes from where they live and instead of spending ten minutes in the car they spend two hours, when the sacrifice is identical in both forms. A daily commute of two hours on top of work/school is unreasonable and burdensome on children.

Burdensome and unreasonable in your opinion. They aren’t your children so you have zero say in their upbringing. I know kids where their parents are shuttling them for hours a day between soccer, piano, and other activities. They do 3/4 of the school work in the car. Do you find that rigid and an unreasonable burdensome also?

One FSSP parish south of us is 5 minutes from a number of homes, but the regional parish is about 25-30 minutes away. So do you think all the daily mass goers in the neighborhood should attend the EF simply because it’s closer?

 

[CuriousMike]

While I will not presume to speak for the Holy Father, but I have experienced a rigidity in some young priest that I know,and most of them have an affinity for the Extraordinary Form. My diocese has had an Extraordinary Form Mass for over 20 years. Which is funny, because if you talk to some of the traditional leaning people in my diocese, our former Bishop was anything but traditional and/or orthodox.
I have also experienced a lot of disrespect for legitimate authority and nastiness towards other Catholic who do not meet certain “standards”

There is a sense of unapproachableness to many of the young priests I know. May of them seem very caught up in trappings, the use of tailored cassocks, tailored clerical suits/shirts with French cuffs and Roman collars made of linen. The use of Latin in blessing people and items, even when not at an EF Mass, and some are very put off when asked to do it in English.
Many of them are slightly detached and aloof and have a hard time in groups of diverse people. We have gone from 30+ years of Fr. First name to Fr. Last name and many of the older priests (and many parishioners) do not like it at all.

My impression is that many times, these young(er) men are looking for something that was never really there. There are looking at the EF Mass now, seeing it celebrated by people who choose to and can bring all trappings into a Sunday Mass, that for the most part, a parish in 1960 would have only seen once or twice a year.

I have heard many horror stories about Mass is the late 50’s early 60’s in my area. Masses that we rushed through (everyone knew of a 15 minute Mass somewhere) People not engaged in Mass, but praying Rosaries or other devotions, infrequent reception of the Eucharist in many cases for reasons that bordered on Jansinism, the list goes on & on.

I think this rigidity the Holy Father is talking about is the wanting to look at the past with rose-colored glasses, and saying ‘Look Mass attendance was up’., Look more people went to Confession’, ‘We need to go back to this or that’, without looking to see if people are being actually fed, or if we are just making a new generation of Catholics who want to be “entertained” with nostalgia?

Thank you for the response and explanation. If this is what Pope Francis was speaking of, I would happily endorse it. Its unfortunate much of what he says is taken out of context or lost in translation, and looses its true meaning.

I have seen what you describe one or twice, but as a whole, I am thankful for our Dioceses’ younger priests. They have enthusiasm to “do the red and say the black,” and not chop and change things. Their homilies are sometimes better, too. I suppose it depends largely on formation and the intent of the Priests themselves as to how things end up being done.

 

[collegeathlete]

Burdensome and unreasonable in your opinion. They aren’t your children so you have zero say in their upbringing. I know kids where their parents are shuttling them for hours a day between soccer, piano, and other activities. They do 3/4 of the school work in the car. Do you find that rigid and an unreasonable burdensome also?

One FSSP parish south of us is 5 minutes from a number of homes, but the regional parish is about 25-30 minutes away. So do you think all the daily mass goers in the neighborhood should attend the EF simply because it’s closer?

I wouldn’t be concerned about the sheer quantity of time that is used up. After all, when I was a kid I was pretty busy. The more important issue concerns why a person spends so much time doing certain things. Is mere preference a good enough reason to spend an extra 2 hours driving? How does that go over when the kids ask why they go all that way to attend the same Mass that is celebrated so close to home? It seems like it would be really easy to develop an attitude that treats the Ordinary Form as inferior.

Tying it all back to Pope Francis, and I quoted him with slightly more context back on page 3, he said that he tries to find out why some people prefer the Extraordinary Form to the Ordinary Form. And he said sometimes it is due to rigidity, a lack of openness. I fail to see how that is controversial at all.

 

[Mark121359]

Well what d ya know…I guess I’m rigid! No biggie, I’ve been called worse. It astonishes me that the Latin Mass, the only Mass that some of our greatest Saints ever knew, could be cause for scandal. And worse still, that those who love it would be looked upon with suspicion. I’m pretty sure that St Therese, whom Pope St. Pius X called “the greatest Saint of modern times” might have something to say about this so-called ‘rigidity.’

Peace Mark

 

[Randolph]

We attend a TLM Mass frequently, but have seen very few young people attending. But if they were attending a Mass period, even the TLM Mass that would be a shocker. After teaching CCD last year I found that most don’t even attend on Christmas! And this is the New Mass, which I don’t object to as I’m a lector. We’re losing our youth for various reasons but I hope they aren’t blaming the TLM Mass for this. Our parish is having the priests sign off on a handout they get that that they attended Mass. This is how bad it’s getting

I appreciate your candor. It could be a regional thing. But I have a different experience.

In the parish I have been attending in the past 18 years, young people and adults have been coming. Many, outside of the parish, couples married there decided to stay while raising their young families. Sometimes to the “pleasant” dismay of our priests, we have a nice problem of children running/playing around the Church ground. Our parish has grown steadily both in terms of young people and families. We have also been blessed with vocations as well.

Both OF and EF Masses are said faithfully and reverently. If I have to guess, the ratio of total people going to the EF versus the OF on any Sunday is about 3:1.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Because there is no difference between the two types of masses in terms of what actually happens. If your sisters kids drove an hour to hockey practice and an hour back every day so that they could have lessons through Latin, that would be extreme too.

Is it the Latin that you object to?

Here, let’s try this.

What if the family had a good friend who became a priest. He was then posted to a town 45 miles away.

Would it be ‘excessive’ for the family to drive to the Mass 45 miles away because their friend was the priest there?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I wouldn’t be concerned about the sheer quantity of time that is used up. After all, when I was a kid I was pretty busy. The more important issue concerns why a person spends so much time doing certain things. Is mere preference a good enough reason to spend an extra 2 hours driving? How does that go over when the kids ask why they go all that way to attend the same Mass that is celebrated so close to home? It seems like it would be really easy to develop an attitude that treats the Ordinary Form as inferior.

What if it’s the kids who want to go as much as the adults?

I’ll ask what I asked another poster. . .Suppose the family has a friend who is a priest and who is posted at a parish 45 miles away.

Would you think that if the family drove to the Mass where their friend presided that it would be easy for them to develop an attitude that their friend’s mass was superior? That they would be treating the Mass 4 miles away as 'inferior?"

Honest to goodness (to echo another poster). I really cannot understand why there is such a judgmental attitude about a family. If this were basically anything but a person going to an EF, nobody would wonder and everybody would say, "If two things are equally accepted, let people choose their preference’.

Same with headcovering ( I don’t call it veiling since that term seems to arouse the same kind of animus). Let a woman say she is thinking about wearing something on her head to Mass (her personal choice) and she is blasted because “that is a symbol of male oppression”, “since you don’t have to, you shouldn’t even WANT to”, and my personal favorite, “Well you shouldn’t do it because you will stand out. That proves that you want to stand out and that means you are doing this out of pride and that’s a sin”.

Sigh.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I wouldn’t be concerned about the sheer quantity of time that is used up. After all, when I was a kid I was pretty busy. The more important issue concerns why a person spends so much time doing certain things. Is mere preference a good enough reason to spend an extra 2 hours driving? How does that go over when the kids ask why they go all that way to attend the same Mass that is celebrated so close to home? It seems like it would be really easy to develop an attitude that treats the Ordinary Form as inferior.

Tying it all back to Pope Francis, and I quoted him with slightly more context back on page 3, he said that he tries to find out why some people prefer the Extraordinary Form to the Ordinary Form. And he said sometimes it is due to rigidity, a lack of openness. I fail to see how that is controversial at all.

Missed your edit. I agree with that --hey, maybe I’m not so rigid after all.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m troubled and saddened by things like this. I live in an area that suppresses the EF. I would love to go. I love the EF. and I love the OF when done well. I’ve seen the OF done well and it leaves nothing lacking. Unfortunately some of us don’t have the access to even have a choice. To attend a EF I would either have to drive 50 minutes to an SSPX chapel. Or 7-8 hours go out of state, then back into the state and go to a new time zone to go to the diocese
So, right now, in a diocese of about a million people I cannot attend the EF. Very few can.

So from my perspective the rigidity is on the other side.

It does sadden me to read this account. I hope the pope does not think of me in that way.

 

[kyrie03]

PatrickC (post #27) wonders if the Pope can tolerate the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom -originated in Jerusalem in the late 4th century and takes 1.5-2 hours. I wonder if the Pope believes that those who follow this tradition are even more rigid than those who follow the traditional Roman rite?

Do ShrodingersCat (posts #29, #45, 48) and DonRuggero (posts #35, 44, 50) judge those who drive teens, preteens, and younger children 45-60 minutes (depending on traffic) one-way to attend Divine Liturgy on Sundays plus 1-2 times weekly - to be extreme, suffer from spiritual maladies, or be guilty of imposing unreasonable and burdensome sacrifices on the children?
If we were to follow the advice of these well-meaning Catholics, our children might end up like the majority of those who were reared in the NO…not that interested in living the Faith of their ancestors

 

[collegeathlete]

What if it’s the kids who want to go as much as the adults?

I’ll ask what I asked another poster. . .Suppose the family has a friend who is a priest and who is posted at a parish 45 miles away.

Would you think that if the family drove to the Mass where their friend presided that it would be easy for them to develop an attitude that their friend’s mass was superior? That they would be treating the Mass 4 miles away as 'inferior?"

If the kids want to go, I guess I would ask the same thing as Pope Francis: why do they want to?

For the friend’s Mass: No, I don’t think there is that same risk because that has nothing to do with the form of the Mass. The only concern I would have is if the family only attends Mass where that friend presides. I think it would be easier for kids to get the impression that they only attend Mass because their parent’s friend is pastor of a certain church.

Honest to goodness (to echo another poster). I really cannot understand why there is such a judgmental attitude about a family. If this were basically anything but a person going to an EF, nobody would wonder and everybody would say, "If two things are equally accepted, let people choose their preference’.

Same with headcovering ( I don’t call it veiling since that term seems to arouse the same kind of animus). Let a woman say she is thinking about wearing something on her head to Mass (her personal choice) and she is blasted because “that is a symbol of male oppression”, “since you don’t have to, you shouldn’t even WANT to”, and my personal favorite, “Well you shouldn’t do it because you will stand out. That proves that you want to stand out and that means you are doing this out of pride and that’s a sin”.

Sigh.

You have to judge on a case-by-case basis. Going 2 hours out of your way everyday to attend Mass when you can attend Mass 5 miles away doesn’t appear healthy, unless there’s more to the story. If I was a kid and had to ride in a car for 2 hours everyday I’d get sick of it fast. As an adult that much time in a car everyday still sounds miserable.

 

[XndrK]

Do ShrodingersCat (posts #29, #45, 48) and DonRuggero (posts #35, 44, 50) judge those who drive teens, preteens, and younger children 45-60 minutes (depending on traffic) one-way to attend Divine Liturgy on Sundays plus 1-2 times weekly - to be extreme, suffer from spiritual maladies, or be guilty of imposing unreasonable and burdensome sacrifices on the children?
If we were to follow the advice of these well-meaning Catholics, our children might end up like the majority of those who were reared in the NO…not that interested in living the Faith of their ancestors

No, they believe (as I do) that driving 45-60 minutes one-way to Mass specifically to hear it in Latin, rather than English, despite the fact that they are both equally valid and holy Masses, is excessive work put into something that at the end of the day doesn’t matter anymore.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Under the last pontificate permission was given to even go to sspx for “love of the EF”.
I wonder if that direction (from the cdf) still applies?

I could be wrong about the cdf on that though. But I remember something about it.

 

[kyrie03]

If the kids want to go, I guess I would ask the same thing as Pope Francis: why do they want to?

For the friend’s Mass: No, I don’t think there is that same risk because that has nothing to do with the form of the Mass. The only concern I would have is if the family only attends Mass where that friend presides. I think it would be easier for kids to get the impression that they only attend Mass because their parent’s friend is pastor of a certain church.

You have to judge on a case-by-case basis. Going 2 hours out of your way everyday to attend Mass when you can attend Mass 5 miles away doesn’t appear healthy, unless there’s more to the story. If I was a kid and had to ride in a car for 2 hours everyday I’d get sick of it fast. As an adult that much time in a car everyday still sounds miserable.

Yes, it is miserable to drive so long in traffic with kids (speaking from experience). But to judge other people choosing to make that sacrifice seems…judgmental.
The WHY that doesn’t seem to be understood, is that some parents judge it more likely their children will continue in the Faith IF sacrifices such as this are made. Our bodies were made to worship God, not serve our own preferences. I’ve attended Mass in EF - very similar to Divine Liturgy in it’s reverence, patterning of prayers, and orientation on worship of God. I’ve attended Mass in OF -very different.