Pope, in interview, laments 'rigidity' of youth who prefer Latin Mass [CWN]

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I don’t mean to pile on, I hope only to understand.
l]
May I chime in as a mother,with your same spirit?
May I take your answer as “yes”,Ksu?🙂
We are not reading that many aren t rigid.But it is there. He said “; some”.
And if we read how he has been explaining much of what he learnt,and yes,he learnt and wasn t born knowing,one would also keep in the heart that it wasn t much fun.
As parents who love our children we know that " My son? No…not my son" .It must be somebody else’s…Is what comes out kind of first. It hurts …
And how often have we stopped with a heavy heart to avoid further damage with one or another of our kids to make things straight? We know.
Father is a beautiful mission,ireplaceble,very dear.
The memory of the good is present when a father says " Let s stop. Let s look into this". And we stop and we look.Out of much love.

Peace.
 
Just a quick interjection: I find it interesting that the adjective “Extraordinary” is used to describe both Extraodinary Ministers of Holy Communion and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Yet, your typical parish in the United States has an abundance of EMHC’s which are used at every Sunday Mass. On the contrary, there are only one or two EF Masses in a typical diocese every Sunday (and there may even be zero!).

Anyone else find this odd?

In regards to the Pope’s comment, it remains difficult to ascertain how he defines rigidity. Does he mean the Latin Mass is too structured? Sometimes I think that too: “Why was the Church so strict?” But Holy Mother Church, in Her infinite wisdom, developed the Liturgy on purpose; i.e. there must be a good reason for the “structure” of the Mass, not “rigidity.” I have to remind myself that people weren’t as stupid back in the day as I make often make them out to be :o

As someone who has suffered from the scruples, I also wonder if the Holy Father’s comment relates to scrupulosity? But in my limited experience as a 20 year old, scrupulous people aren’t necessarily attracted to the TLM. If someone scruples over the Liturgy, then maybe he/she is trapped in a mindset of, “I must only attend TLM because NO is deficient.” Most scrupulosity (again, in my limited experience) deals with human sexuality, particularly lustful thoughts.

My question to the Holy Father is, “What do you envision as a solution to so-called rigidity?” If he is defining “rigidity” as “only attending the TLM and refusing to attend any NO,” then the solution is quite simple: both Forms of the Mass are equal; neither one constitutes a superior form of worship, because they are both the Mass; i.e. the greatest way man can worship God. Unfortunately, the guidelines of Sancrosanctum Concilium have not been lived up to, especially in the minds of the Council Fathers. As the Church, we must work and pray to implement the features as laid out by the Council Fathers. For example, Ora Labora suggested that the laity form Scholas - excellent! Gregorian Chant will develop the “place of pride” it deserves to have in the Mass.

But if the Holy Father refers to the structure of the TLM as “rigidity,” he is (sadly) not recognizing the wisdom of the Church which developed the Liturgy. A solution to structure seems like something akin to “free-spiritedness” or even at the furthest extreme, “chaos.” The TLM does indeed contain a very ordered composition but for a good reason. Liturgy Guy wrote a fantastic article on why critiquing the TLM as “too-structured” ignores the reality of the essence of the Mass.

I will close my post by just adding that I am 20 years old. The number of young people I know who are fond of the Latin Mass is not negligible. The number is growing, and, rather sadly, the number of young people at NO continues to decline. Now, don’t get me wrong: I am not bad-mouthing the NO, because I attend one every day (or at least try to)! This is a simple observation, and the Church will need to address it as the years move along.

Jesus tells us to know one another by our fruits. It seems as if the FSSP, ICRSS, Clear Creek Abbey, and others affiliated with the TLM are experiencing a vocation boom, not only in terms of priestly and religious callings, but also large families. There are also NO religious orders and dioceses who are doing well in these categories, such as the Dominicans, Norbertines, etc.

At the end of the day, they are both the Mass. At Holy Communion, we receive Jesus Christ - Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. The Mass is the highest form of giving praise and worship to our Creator. Liturgy is also not a personal expression of Faith, and it should always be celebrated in accordance with what Mother Church teaches. Let’s stop the judging on both sides and let the fruits grow.
 
May I chime in as a mother,with your same spirit?
May I take your answer as “yes”,Ksu?🙂
We are not reading that many aren t rigid.But it is there. He said “; some”.
And if we read how he has been explaining much of what he learnt,and yes,he learnt and wasn t born knowing,one would also keep in the heart that it wasn t much fun.
As parents who love our children we know that " My son? No…not my son" .It must be somebody else’s…Is what comes out kind of first. It hurts …
And how often have we stopped with a heavy heart to avoid further damage with one or another of our kids to make things straight? We know.
Father is a beautiful mission,ireplaceble,very dear.
The memory of the good is present when a father says " Let s stop. Let s look into this". And we stop and we look.Out of much love.

Peace.
My wife wasn’t into religion very much, so it was left to me to educate my son and daughter about the Faith. It was an unfortunate period of turmoil in Catholic schools and Sunday schools, so supplementary home schooling was an absolute must.

There was no EF Mass at that time, and the widespread, unauthorized experimentation with the new OF was shameful–hugs and even some kissing of strangers, clown Masses, balloon Masses, an Easter bunny Mass, etc. ,with horribly amateurish garage-band accompaniment was the order of the day. As someone said above, VC II was made the scapegoat for all the foolishness, but the truth is that the Council Fathers were simply ignored

It’s no mystery why many young and old Church-goers would would gravitate toward the EF when an error was corrected and it was returned to the people by St. JP II and B XVI. The two never got their wish about a wide accessibility of the EF, but at least it’s back.

BTW, I do not believe that Pope Francis would criticize a youngster for preferring the EF. There has to be much more to it, but, boy oh boy, how the book will sell now!
 
No, he is agreeing with what I said, and to the reply you gave to me.

Thank you Dom Ruggero. I don’t mind people not agreeing with me, but the dismissive attitude of some here to very real experiences that others deal with is astounding to me. It would almost be comical if it did not prove the exact point t of this thread. I guess irony is lost on people who don’t want dialogue. 😦
:sad_yes:

I wanted to affirm what you wrote in the face of the the dismissive attitude expressed to you. I have decades of this experience regarding the very serious dysfunctionality that one encounters in those groups who are overly attached to the vetus ordo, an issue which Pope Francis rightly underscores. Bishops need to have carefully surveillance of this phenomenon.

Fortunately, Oneofthewomen, bishops and chancery officials do get the irony and they are a most critical point.
 
:sad_yes:

I wanted to affirm what you wrote in the face of the the dismissive attitude expressed to you. I have decades of this experience regarding the very serious dysfunctionality that one encounters in those groups who are overly attached to the vetus ordo, an issue which Pope Francis rightly underscores. Bishops need to have carefully surveillance of this phenomenon.

Fortunately, Oneofthewomen, bishops and chancery officials do get the irony and they are a most critical point.
Thank you Father.

I pray for all of you clerics, Bishops & priests alike, it must be so difficult to have everything you say challenged by “Monday morning quarterbacks”. Peace be with you and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
 
Just a quick interjection: I find it interesting that the adjective “Extraordinary” is used to describe both Extraodinary Ministers of Holy Communion and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. Yet, your typical parish in the United States has an abundance of EMHC’s which are used at every Sunday Mass. On the contrary, there are only one or two EF Masses in a typical diocese every Sunday (and there may even be zero!).

Anyone else find this odd?
Not really. Having fewer priests has meant there is usually on one priest per Mass and more people. More EMHC’s are needed to make the progression of Mass quick enough, in our case at least, to get ready for the next Mass. Likewise, the idea of a large number wanting this the EF would have to increase to make best use of the time of priest. For example, if a parish is packing in 500 people a Mass, even 50 wanting the EF makes such a move impractical.
 
Thank you Father.

I pray for all of you clerics, Bishops & priests alike, it must be so difficult to have everything you say challenged by “Monday morning quarterbacks”. Peace be with you and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.
Thank you for the prayers…they are most appreciated. And for your nice words.

The negative effect of criticism may not be as much as you think. If a brother priest who has been ordained for years raises a point with me, I typically consider it according to a different measure. If the criticism however is from someone who did not complete a comparable cursus of study as mine, is not a peer in the academy in so far as the point raised concerns a theological matter, and the person moreover lacks any pastoral experience when I have been a priest across many years…no; the criticism has little to no significance to me at all.
 
My wife wasn’t into religion very much, so it was left to me to educate my son and daughter about the Faith.

BTW, I do not believe that Pope Francis would criticize a youngster for preferring the EF. There has to be much more to it, but, boy oh boy, how the book will sell now!
So would you give them extra things to read or just talk about it? Was it something say casual since you say you sent them to Catholic School?

In all honesty, I knew one lady who homeschooled her kids,no one else and in US. Lovely joyful lady with 6 kids. Unfortunately she died two years ago young and ,kids still quite small.
We met because she wanted to minister with her children to one of the Nursing homes I ministered/ served. And you can imagine, mom and 5 kids then singing was delightful for everyone. Granddads and grandmas were so happy a when they came by. Very loving family.
 
I find some of the criticism of young people attending the E.F. Mass on this thread completely ridiculous. With Mass attendance being so low in many countries (including the U.S.) as it is, you would think that attending any form of Mass would be encouraged, not frowned upon.
Most of the people who attend the EF (Sundays @ 11:15am in a pretty central location) are for the most part under 40. They are “rigid” (at least in my experience). Many of them look upon the OF with contempt, if not outright disdain.
My niece attends a parish where right next to the altar there is a drum set and electric guitar with a huge Marshall amplifier. These are used at the 11:30 AM Mass every Sunday. When I saw them, my thoughts were of Jimmy Page and John Bonham whaling away at a Led Zeppelin concert I attended in my youth. Maybe some of the under 40 “rigid” that you claim to know attended such a parish as this in the past and said…enough!

Peace, Mark
 
So would you give them extra things to read or just talk about it? Was it something say casual since you say you sent them to Catholic School.

**There was some reading of basic Catholic teaching in the Baltimore Catechism once or twice a week, just enough to assure myself they couldn’t easily be led astray later in life. Faulty school texts and hymns had sprung up like mushrooms, and failed progressive education models (no walls and sit on the floor, for example:rolleyes:) just exacerbated the problem.

Most kids like competition with their parents (makes them feel like equals instead of being talked down to) so I tried to make it fun by having them try to stump the old man with Q’s about something they read on their own. E.G., If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, why did it stop there? Why not a fourth Person who proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit?

There was a lot of joking and laughing, so they enjoyed it and it provided me with very happy memories as well as grounding me in the Faith, too. **
 
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KSU:
Sounds much fun and your kids must have loved having dad play with them!
Kids grow old so fast. …All that love stays inside of us.
Gramdmas in our case helped a lot in the spiritual upbringing of our children( school as well),but that we still keep that closeness with our relatives,even geographically speaking is a blessing. . Both Catholic and loving and creative in their own ways!
Grandparents have that unique space and memory in our lives,and oftentimes at home,that we know only them can fill,and our children loved to be with them. Still do,only mom is left.
Thanks for sharing
 
Respect and honor both the Tridentine Mass and the New Mass because they were approved by the Church…,

For those of you who have been bad mouthing and slandering the Tridentine Mass… Shame on you!!! This Mass has been a part of the tradition of the Church for over 1,000 years. What makes you think that you are better than the collective wisdom of the Church? This includes all the saints and all the faithful who attended it. I, myself, have been attending the Tridentine Mass since my 20’s during the time it was considered an Indult Mass. My spiritual life has changed profoundly ever since. I am humbled and so grateful for it. The same can be said for many of my friends.

Why are young people attracted to it? The simple truth is that the Tridentine Mass–itself–is its own great communicator. Goodness, holiness and piety communicate themselves.

The Tridentine Mass is a great gift the Church gave to herself and her flock. It is a timeless treasure. For those of you who have been uncharitable in your thoughts and comments toward the Tridentine Mass and toward those people are attending it, look at yourselves in the mirror and ask: “Have I really been fair, correct and charitable in my judgment and comments? Am I really better than the collective wisdom of the Church?”

People–young and old–attend the Tridentine Mass because they encounter God in a very intimate way. How could anyone cast these people as “rigid”?
 
I can’t believe this thread is still going.

I didn’t read all the posts, but I didn’t see anyone condemning the Latin mass. I saw people acknowledging that there are people who go to Latin mass that have a “holier than thou” attitude. And THOSE are the people that the pope was calling rigid. Preferring a particular style of mass is no problem; going out of your way to avoid any other form of mass because you think your preference is somehow objectively better IS a problem. Making a little extra effort to get to the mass you prefer is no problem, probably spiritually beneficial. But there is a balance to be struck.
 
Forgive me for not reading the whole thread…

Has anyone noticed that these comments are cherry-picked from statements made by Francis when he was in Argentina years ago??

So, his comments are presented in this thread out of time, in isolation, out of context.
Was the Pope responding to a specific question perhaps?
Or a specific pastoral situation in Argentina at that time?

I have to wonder why these comments have been put forth as if they are addressed to a current situation.
Whose responsibility is that?
 
I can’t believe this thread is still going.

I didn’t read all the posts, but I didn’t see anyone condemning the Latin mass. I saw people acknowledging that there are people who go to Latin mass that have a “holier than thou” attitude. And THOSE are the people that the pope was calling rigid. Preferring a particular style of mass is no problem; going out of your way to avoid any other form of mass because you think your preference is somehow objectively better IS a problem. Making a little extra effort to get to the mass you prefer is no problem, probably spiritually beneficial. But there is a balance to be struck.
I would personally readily accept Pope Francis’ criticism of myself (young people) if I myself exhibit the “holier than thou” attitude toward others. That behavior is wrong and poisonous. But did Pope Francis actually use the terms “holier than thou” as you pointed out, or make any direct reference to it? If he did, I would like you to point it out to me.

The “holier than thou” crowd comes from all walks of life. This includes those who attend the Tridentine Mass and the New Mass. I personally had arguments with them (including priests) regarding their ignorance, arrogance and dismissive judgments regarding the “illegitimacy” of the Mass that they don’t like. This divisive fight within the church must stop.
 
I would personally readily accept Pope Francis’ criticism of myself (young people) if I myself exhibit the “holier than thou” attitude toward others. That behavior is wrong and poisonous. But did Pope Francis actually use the terms “holier than thou” as you pointed out, or make any direct reference to it? If he did, I would like you to point it out to me.

The “holier than thou” crowd comes from all walks of life. This includes those who attend the Tridentine Mass and the New Mass. I personally had arguments with them (including priests) regarding their ignorance, arrogance and dismissive judgments regarding the “illegitimacy” of the Mass that they don’t like. This divisive fight within the church must stop.
I think it was also odd that the pope broke with the recent trend of praising engaged faithful youth. Given that we are still operating in a time shaped immensely by JPII. The youth have been hands off group.
I found it odd that he actually included the idea of youth. Usually he just talks of rigidity and addresses it to the whole.
 
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