Pope, Lutheran leader pledge to work for restored communion [CWN]

[JakeWI]

Can you tell us what Pope Francis has done about the objections that the Eastern Orthodox and the objections that the SSPX have toward full reconciliation?

Well for one, he has met with the Russian Orthodox in February which was a fruitful and historical visit, being that this hadn’t happened in more than 1,000 years.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/02/12/joint_declaration_of_pope_francis_and_patriarch_kirill/1208117

The second being the SSPX and the fact that he has allowed them the legitimate sacrament of reconciliation.

You are getting ahead of yourself in asking what he has done about the objections of each, in that this will be a process to clear up. Again, to understand where each is coming from all happens in God’s time, at His pace and only His pace alone. These meetings show that he is willing and wanting to at least open dialog from our point of view. My wife, who was for gay marriage when we met, has totally changed her tune in learning why marriage is what it is, and why a woman gets married to a man. The way it was explained in why the Catholic church teaches what it does, helped her to wrap her brain around this all. Answers may not be here yet, but dialog is so important.

While some don’t think we should do it first, since “we aren’t the one who broke away”, this all goes back to the concept of who is going to be the adult in the situation in everyday life. Less being prideful, more concentration on the souls of others.

 

[collegeathlete]

I am not sure that the Pope can be open to accepting some of the teachings we see today in the Lutheran community.

Of course not and both sides have acknowledged as much, but that misses the point. To borrow an expression from Pope Francis, it’s about “walking together”. These meetings indicate a willingness to listen and dialogue, to work together, and above all they show genuine concern for other Christians.

Recent developments notwithstanding, Lutherans still have much common ground with Catholics.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Of course not and both sides have acknowledged as much, but that misses the point. To borrow an expression from Pope Francis, it’s about “walking together”. These meetings indicate a willingness to listen and dialogue, to work together, and above all they show genuine concern for other Christians.

Recent developments notwithstanding, Lutherans still have much common ground with Catholics.

Thank you very much for your post. ‘Walking together’ is the image I keep before me. I don’t believe that anyone involved in this event - in the planning of it or in the forefront of the signed declaration - expects Lutherans across the world to convert to the Roman church, or the other way around. That is not going to happen. What IS going to happen is a continuation of ‘walking together’ as brothers and sisters of Christ.

If the Pope can walk with Sweden’s Primate, Archbishop Antje Jackelen, then that means the door is open for all of us to journey together, even in the midst of differences of belief and practice.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I am not sure that the Pope can be open to accepting some of the teachings we see today in the Lutheran community.

Well, Lutherans would say the exact same thing about positions held by Rome.

It is a two way street, you understand.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thank you very much for your post. ‘Walking together’ is the image I keep before me. I don’t believe that anyone involved in this event - in the planning of it or in the forefront of the signed declaration - expects Lutherans across the world to convert to the Roman church, or the other way around. That is not going to happen. What IS going to happen is a continuation of ‘walking together’ as brothers and sisters of Christ.

If the Pope can walk with Sweden’s Primate, Archbishop Antje Jackelen, then that means the door is open for all of us to journey together, even in the midst of differences of belief and practice.

Yes…and not only walk with her but call her “my dear sister.” She is quite a remarkable person.

Pope Benedict eloquently said years ago, when he was home in Germany that we – that is to say Rome – has no thought today of what would be termed an “ecumenism of return”…that people en masse would just close up their confession and mass emigrate into the Church of Rome. That was what Popes once thought and even wrote…but of course it did not happen. Pope Benedict made it clear that is not what Popes think in modern times. I vividly remember when he said it.

 

[TCEL]

Well, Lutherans would say the exact same thing about positions held by Rome.

It is a two way street, you understand.

Yes. That’s why it seems fair to think they might fly to Rome to commemorate the papacy some day if this gesture was about honoring our tradition’s founders and recognizing the errors of the past.

 

[ClearWater]

We need to pray for Pope Francis.

 

[2PT3]

Interestingly we are talking to the most liberal Lutherans where the chance of reconciliation is absolutley zero.
The more Conservative Lutherans whose values more closely resemble Catholicism want nothing to do with us.
I find this whole episode a charade.
I’m sure Pope Francis means well
But as my late mother frequently reminded me "The road to hell is paved with good intentions "

Amen.

 

[Convert_in_99]

We need to pray for Pope Francis.

Always!

 

[Don_Ruggero]

We need to pray for Pope Francis.

I agree with you…he is at the top of the list of the greatest popes looking at the last 500 years in Church history. May the Lord give him good health, long life, and may He continue to inspire the Holy Father with bold initiatives for the Church globally in this moment in history.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Yes. That’s why it seems fair to think they might fly to Rome to commemorate the papacy some day if this gesture was about honoring our tradition’s founders and recognizing the errors of the past.

Why do think they have not done this already? They have. Many times they have visited the Holy See.

The Lutherans of this part of Europe have even been honoured invited participants in our synods of bishops in Rome, actually.

You have made these accusatory comments…so are you actually unaware of these very historic events and visits by the Swedish Lutherans? Or the roles the Lutherans have been invited to play, even by the Pope Saint John Paul II? That would be very sad to make such comments when it is far from what has really happened, actually.

In fact, here is a story from Vatican Radio about the visit in May 2015 of the Archbishop of Uppsala, the head of the Lutheran church of Sweden, visiting the Vatican with her entourage where she was received by the Pope in the context of visiting the Vatican and the sacred sights associated with the apostles.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/05/04/pope_francis_welcomes_head_of_lutheran_church_of_sweden/1141539.

I include a photo from Vatican Television of the archbishop’s visit in May 2015

http://media02.radiovaticana.va/photo/2015/05/05/RV6147_Articolo.jpg

and the address of Pope Francis to his “dear sister”

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/may/documents/papa-francesco_20150504_chiesa-evangelico-luterana-svezia.html

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I find this whole episode a charade.
I’m sure Pope Francis means well
But as my late mother frequently reminded me "The road to hell is paved with good intentions "

I would hope a moderator of Catholic Answers would very strongly assert themselves in the face of such a statement as the Pope conducting a charade…and that the road he is on is the road to hell.

Such characterisations regarding His Holiness…the Vicar of Christ…the Successor of Peter…defy words. I do not understand how these expressions can even be tolerated.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I would hope a moderator of Catholic Answers would very strongly assert themselves in the face of such a statement as the Pope conducting a charade…and that the road he is on is the road to hell.

Such characterisations regarding His Holiness…the Vicar of Christ…the Successor of Peter…defy words. I do not understand how these expressions can even be tolerated.

I agree!

 

[RPRPsych]

I would hope a moderator of Catholic Answers would very strongly assert themselves in the face of such a statement as the Pope conducting a charade…and that the road he is on is the road to hell.

Such characterisations regarding His Holiness…the Vicar of Christ…the Successor of Peter…defy words. I do not understand how these expressions can even be tolerated.

And threads like these (or this one: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1030490) are exactly why I have decided that CAF is not really worth the time or emotional investment that I used to give it not so long ago.

Repeat offenders, whose agenda is to spread anti-Papal poison and who cloak their deeds with legalistic (or worse, “traditionalist”) arguments, are allowed to get off scot-free.

Hints, innuendoes and nudge-nudge wink-wink tactics worthy of Perez Hilton are used by so-called forum pundits and veterans to denigrate the Pope.

Links to offensive material (including calling the Ordinary Form of the Mass “poison like arsenic”) are tolerated in posters’ signatures and links.

Yes, you know who you are, and you can be proud of yourselves. As the old Victorian rhyme goes, “Satan is glad, when you are bad.”

There is more authentic Catholicism to be found in Japanese anime than in some of the garbage that goes uncorrected on this forum.

I’m out. I have better things to do with my time than expose myself to this poison: these include sleeping, playing with RPR Junior, praying the Rosary and writing RPGs. Not to mention that little thing called a job. To paraphrase Isaac Asimov: enjoy the goldfish bowl you have created here.

R.

 

[Convert_in_99]

And threads like these (or this one: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1030490) are exactly why I have decided that CAF is not really worth the time or emotional investment that I used to give it not so long ago.

Repeat offenders, whose agenda is to spread anti-Papal poison and who cloak their deeds with legalistic (or worse, “traditionalist”) arguments, are allowed to get off scot-free.

Hints, innuendoes and nudge-nudge wink-wink tactics worthy of Perez Hilton are used by so-called forum pundits and veterans to denigrate the Pope.

Links to offensive material (including calling the Ordinary Form of the Mass “poison like arsenic”) are tolerated in posters’ signatures and links.

Yes, you know who you are, and you can be proud of yourselves. As the old Victorian rhyme goes, “Satan is glad, when you are bad.”

There is more authentic Catholicism to be found in Japanese anime than in some of the garbage that goes uncorrected on this forum.

I’m out. I have better things to do with my time than expose myself to this poison: these include sleeping, playing with RPR Junior, praying the Rosary and writing RPGs. Not to mention that little thing called a job. To paraphrase Isaac Asimov: enjoy the goldfish bowl you have created here.

R.

Hey! I wondered where you had gone off too.

I actually made a thread in back fence telling people (very politely) to stop these attacks on our Holy Father and clergy…it got deleted.

Hope all is well. God bless you and your family!

 

[Havard]

Rev. Hans Fiene (LCMS pastor) over at Lutheran Satire did an another amusing video, this time commemorating the Reformation, where he takes shots at… well, just about everybody.

youtube.com/watch?v=lM9BR55nA2U

 

[commenter]

There are many people who fully support Pope Francis, and ecumenism, who are expressing a reality check - not for Pope Francis, who does not need one. He is realistic.
The last few popes, including those who have rightly been quoted on ecumenism, have also made very forceful statements about the need for Catholics, and other citizens, to resist current attacks on Life, Marriage, and concerns about wrongful pressures for women’s ordination.

That doesn’t mean we should ignore their papal actions and statements on ecumenism. It just means we put ecumenism into context, rather than in isolation. It does not mean shutting off communication with those with whom we disagree. For instance, Pope Benedict met with President Obama, who has spoken at the national conference of his denomination, which is very opposed to much of what Pope Benedict taught.

There are 2 kinds of ecumenism.

1. Some groups stand with the RCC on issues the ecumenical popes identified as urgent. They hold to some absolutes of true/false, and right/wrong. Think LCMS, the Continuum, and certain others. Some kind of reunion, on some level, is possible.
2. Other groups are moving away from the RCC. We still need to keep the lines of contact open on all levels, national, and local. Individuals are not all alike, we can still learn from them and teach them things. And pray together.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

Just the thought of major Lutheran leaders from so many countries actually inviting the Pope to speak to them…does anyone else see how significant that is? What an amazing moment. We are one Body of Christ. We should work towards healing the wounds because unity is what we really need in an increasing secular world. Holding onto a 500 year old grudge will not help us work together to fight against an increasingly anti-Christian world.

 

[TCEL]

Just the thought of major Lutheran leaders from so many countries actually inviting the Pope to speak to them…does anyone else see how significant that is? What an amazing moment. We are one Body of Christ. We should work towards healing the wounds because unity is what we really need in an increasing secular world. Holding onto a 500 year old grudge will not help us work together to fight against an increasingly anti-Christian world.

I really do agree with this sentiment. It’s amazing we are able to dialogue at all. It’s amazing I can speak at all with my in-laws, whereas not too long ago it would have been fraught with tension. (There’s still tension and genuine disagreement.) It still doesn’t change the fact that we must at some point, for genuine unity, examine the philosophical underpinnings of our assumed world views. Seriously, one of the most practical things I ever studied was a basic history of philosophical development. That far and away deepened my understanding of current events more than all the other “useful” courses I took. (Except I didn’t get it in college. I learned about it on my own, and I surely have more to learn.)

I have many good reasons that make me ache and long for greater unity. My friends in college were committed non-Catholic Christians; one more liberal and one more conservative. There are many people in my life besides that. We must stand united. But one of my friends is on board with the secular ethics but is more comfortable with liturgy, and the reverse is true with the other. I have working experience in my lived life with these differences. We can’t gloss over them. And yet I can always hope that softening hearts is the first step.

 

[commenter]

Just the thought of major Lutheran leaders from so many countries actually inviting the Pope to speak to them…does anyone else see how significant that is? What an amazing moment. We are one Body of Christ. We should work towards healing the wounds because unity is what we really need in an increasing secular world. Holding onto a 500 year old grudge will not help us work together to fight against an increasingly anti-Christian world.

What you are saying is true. There are indeed some Catholics who are focused on Lutherans Behaving Badly in the 1500s, who believe every error or division from that era was the fault of Luther, and our greatest problem today is forgetfulness of his “evil” deeds.
Thus the 500 year old grudge.

There are ******other ****** Catholics ****and ********Lutherans **** who have moved beyond the controversies of the 1500s who are appalled by ****current ****actions or positions of some Lutheran denominations on things like abortion, marriage, and perhaps a moving away from Confessional Lutheran positions on doctrine, and subservience to the secular culture.

This is something different from the “500 year old grudge”. I think Catholics and Confessional Lutherans should keep open communications with the leaders of the mainline denominations (and Jews, and Muslims). But ecumenical progress is more realistic among Catholics and Confessional Lutherans, the Anglican Continuum, Eastern Orthodoxy, as well as with more traditional members of the mainline denominations.