Pope, Lutheran leader pledge to work for restored communion [CWN]

[RPRPsych]

Hey! I wondered where you had gone off too.

I actually made a thread in back fence telling people (very politely) to stop these attacks on our Holy Father and clergy…it got deleted.

Hope all is well. God bless you and your family!

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

God bless you all, too!

I guess the moderators have realized that election time causes a little outbreak of cabin fever and have decided to cut the “usual suspects” some slack. Can’t blame them. It’s a hard job.

 

[2PT3]

What is more important: unity or truth? How much truth can we sacrifice for the sake of unity? If our new mantra is “unity through diversity” then what are we really? Are there any limits to such diversity, and how can they change over time?

It seems that we may be moving into a phase where many believe that unity is THE single most important value, and that if something stands in the way of unity it must, ipso facto, be untrue, or at an “unessential” truth. This greatly disturbs me.

I also wonder if more could be accomplished by truly evangelizing members of Protestant Christian denominations so that they might convert to Catholicism, but that now seems to be verboten now, and perhaps even a sin. At a minimum, the very idea seems to make some people who are very highly placed in the Church very angry.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Just the thought of major Lutheran leaders from so many countries actually inviting the Pope to speak to them…does anyone else see how significant that is? What an amazing moment. We are one Body of Christ. We should work towards healing the wounds because unity is what we really need in an increasing secular world. Holding onto a 500 year old grudge will not help us work together to fight against an increasingly anti-Christian world.

Yes!

 

[2PT3]

Yes!

Respectfully disagree.

To describe the gulf between Lutheranism and Catholicism as nothing more than “a 500 year old grudge” does not give justice to the real issues at stake. Yes, all Christians are facing a common enemy in anti-Christian secularism. We can and should work together in every way that we can. But the fact that we have a common enemy does not mean we can sweep our differences under the rug or pretend they don’t exist for the sake of some false “unity”.

If “unity” becomes the highest value, truth must be compromised. Truth must remain a higher value than unity. Otherwise, the Church simply becomes “everybody” no matter what they believe.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Respectfully disagree.

To describe the gulf between Lutheranism and Catholicism as nothing more than “a 500 year old grudge” does not give justice to the real issues at stake. Yes, all Christians are facing a common enemy in anti-Christian secularism. We can and should work together in every way that we can. But the fact that we have a common enemy does not mean we can sweep our differences under the rug or pretend they don’t exist for the sake of some false “unity”.

If “unity” becomes the highest value, truth must be compromised. Truth must remain a higher value than unity. Otherwise, the Church simply becomes “everybody” no matter what they believe.

Again I say: The laity today think they can be their own pope if they disagree with the current one!

 

[2PT3]

Again I say: The laity today think they can be their own pope if they disagree with the current one!

Excuse me, but where in the post above did I question or contradict anything in the Catechism? All I did was point out that “unity” may not be achievable without compromising truth. That does not mean I am trying to be my own pope. You speak derisively of “the laity today”. I suppose we lay people need to remember our place as sheep, peasants or children and learn not to question our betters.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Yes, I have been instructed today on this site that I must submit without question to Catholic prelates and learn to address them as “Excellency” and “Eminence” because I, as a lay person, am not competent to question their judgment. I suppose we lay people need to remember our place as sheep, peasants or children and learn not to question our betters.

My goodness! UNbelievable! Yeah, Jesus called us sheep and the Pope and Bishops our Shepherds. If you have such a problem take it up with Jesus not us.

 

[2PT3]

My goodness! UNbelievable! Yeah, Jesus called us sheep and the Pope and Bishops our Shepherds. If you have such a problem take it up with Jesus not us.

Ever heard of clericalism? It is not high on Pope Francis’ list of “likes”.

And you didn’t answer my question: where in the post above did I question or contradict anything in the Catechism? I didn’t.

If your goal is to run off anyone who wants to have a real discussion or debate about issues in the Church by insulting and denigrating them then you are succeeding. Do you feel that it is a good evangelization technique? Does it seem to work for you?

 

[Expatreprocedit]

Lutherans have a whole lot more disagreements with the Roman Catholic church than does the SSPX. Do you expect all Lutheran women pastors and bishops to resign. do you expect that all married Lutheran SS couples will divorce and renounce their marriage?

You and other posters seem to be assuming that Lutheranism is monolithic. It isn’t, of course. Undoubtably a reunion of some Lutherans with Rome would mean a split between them and the other Lutherans.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Ever heard of clericalism? It is not high on Pope Francis’ list of “likes”.

And you didn’t answer my question: where in the post above did I question or contradict anything in the Catechism? I didn’t.

If your goal is to run off anyone who wants to have a real discussion or debate about issues in the Church by insulting and denigrating them then you are succeeding. Do you feel that it is a good evangelization technique? Does it seem to work for you?

You were disrespectful of the Holy Father and didn’t wish to accept what he says or does as the truth.

No, I just want Catholics to be Catholic and respectfully heed their Shepherds, not questioning if what they say or do is the “real” or “fullness” of truth. Especially the Pope!

 

[fin]

How charitable.

Repeat offenders, whose agenda is to spread anti-Papal poison and who cloak their deeds with legalistic (or worse, “traditionalist”) arguments, are allowed to get off scot-free.

Hints, innuendoes and nudge-nudge wink-wink tactics worthy of Perez Hilton are used by so-called forum pundits and veterans to denigrate the Pope.

 

[fin]

Exactly.

But, careful careful! You might not want to offend the other posters in this thread!

I’m concerned about the direction the Church has been taking of late.

 

[2PT3]

You were disrespectful of the Holy Father and didn’t wish to accept what he says or does as the truth.

No, I just want Catholics to be Catholic and respectfully heed their Shepherds, not questioning if what they say or do is the “real” or “fullness” of truth. Especially the Pope!

How was I disrespectful? I neither mentioned nor referred to him. All I did was question the proposition that the real differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism can be dismissed as “a 500 year old grudge” without compromising the truth.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Exactly.

But, careful careful! You might not want to offend the other posters in this thread!

Man alive! Yet another one! :dts:

 

[Convert_in_99]

How was I disrespectful? I neither mentioned nor referred to him. All I did was question the proposition that the real differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism can be dismissed as “a 500 year old grudge” without compromising the truth.

Why not just believe he is doing what is best for the Church and leave it at that?

 

[fin]

I still want to see CW around.

Man alive! Yet another one! :dts:

 

[Convert_in_99]

I still want to see CW around.

Sorry what is CW?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

My goodness! UNbelievable! Yeah, Jesus called us sheep and the Pope and Bishops our Shepherds. If you have such a problem take it up with Jesus not us.

It is a remarkable experience, isn’t it? Imagine the experience multiplied many times. And when you are in a chancery many times over and above again. The positive side of the experience is that it does give perspective.

And, thankfully, in this forum, there is the “report to moderator” feature.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Originally Posted by 2PT3
Yes, I have been instructed today on this site that I must submit without question to Catholic prelates and learn to address them as “Excellency” and “Eminence” because I, as a lay person, am not competent to question their judgment. I suppose we lay people need to remember our place as sheep, peasants or children and learn not to question our betters.

The Church is a divinely constituted hierarchy.

Yes, a prelate of the Church can indeed judge or give a directive to one who is his canonical subject – and that demands the compliance of the subject.

But, depending upon the level, there can be absolutely no recourse and absolutely no appeal for those who are below that level.

There was, and is, a good reason for the old Latin maxim…Rome has spoken, the matter is finished.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Why not just believe he is doing what is best for the Church and leave it at that?

I don’t think people can outright say the pope is heretical or not legitimate or even not doing and saying what he thinks is right for the church. But any Catholic can think this pope or any pope is wrong in his opinions. Almost every parish I’ve ever been to does not agree with BXVI on liturgical or musical matters. The vast majority of Catholics don’t agree with many Catholic issues including birth control. Certain things (like birth control) are non negotiable. But others, such as the style in which any pope communicates or works for ecumenism (;which ultimately means turning other Christians Catholic) or communicate the way he does. I disagree with the pope about tons of things. Some of which I’m sure stem from the fact that I’m not South American and haven’t been formed by that culture. I think one can be a faithful Catholic and disagree with the style and even substance with any given pontiff. They are not all equal. Some have been downright bad. A Catholic owes respect to the office of Peter and to the person in that office. I’ve been very frustrated with some things his pope has done and said. I love him. I care for him and I pray for him. But he is not personally infallible or perfect.

Pope Francis has challenged and weakened my faith. Only time will tell if that was pruning that made the branches grow stronger or if it was damaging to the tree if my faith.

Either way, no pope is bigger than the office of pope and each pope is but a parenthesis in the line of the church. God willing you and I live to see the next pope and whatever that brings.

I may disagree with the pope on certain things like artificial birth control or communion for adulterers. and others may disagree with him on other things. Like the beauty of spanking a child…