But then we’d be *like *the Protestants. I say that half facetiously. Culturally, when Catholics are at church we resist the warmth and friendliness expressed by our Protestant friends. I think it’s both that we don’t want to be like them, but importantly we want to sustain appropriate reverence within the walls of the church.
I’m no expert, but I think it’s the former that leads critics to find support from the latter.
Ooooooooo you were poking fun? I didn’t get that
I was going with global warming.Because we know it was the feminization that did it.
Now this is an ironic twist, considering that it is this same central authority (Pope Francis) that is extolling the good points of the vernacular.
It could be. I was brought up to be completely silent in church before and after Mass. Go in, get on your knees, pray, Mass, quiet, leave.
Yes, I acknowledge the irony. And I understand His Holiness in His explanation, as far as it goes. I also acknowledge all of the previous Popes who have expounded quite eloquently on the merits of the EF as well. We have two forms of one Rite. And we must honor both. And hopefully, one day, we will not have to have these discussions since all Priests everywhere will offer Mass in compliance with the rubrics to the honor of Christ and His Faithful.
Both of my parents grew up in Baltimore, very much before Vatican II and even though ALL of the Masses were Latin Masses, most, if not ALL, of the Catholic Churches in Baltimore were ethnic Churches since many of the parents of people my parents age were immigrants.
We are talking about the Mass being in the vernacular as opposed to being in Latin, how many times have you seen people using “non-verbal tools like chalkboards, illustrations, drawing in the sand (like ChristI don’t know. I think the best teachers use non-verbal tools like chalkboards, illustrations, drawing in the sand (like Christ) to make their points or to explain things. I had a Spanish speaker as my nuclear physics instructor so I think I know what I’m talking about.
) to make their points” at Mass?”, do you understand Spanish?The fact that it takes books to explain the Mass (rather than Mass in the all-vernacular) speaks volumes literally as to what the vernacular by itself failed to accomplish.
pn, I don’t think anyone is denying that vernacular has good points. There’s a natural gravity to it. But is that anywhere enough in itself? If anything, it is divisive, hardly a goal Catholicism should be shooting for.
I do not understand how it is divisive, and yes Mass in the vernacular is good enough in itself, as it conveys all the grace as Mass in Latin. I would say if anything, it seems the Catholic world is pretty much as unified on the Mass in the vernacular as it has been on anything. I know there is still a small percentage that prefer the Latin, but it seems to be a very small percentage.
Regardless of what the statistics are, I don’t think it will ever be possible to put the vernacular genie back into the bottle. It’s here to stay, and I think we need to move forward, make the best of it, while at the same time not entirely losing our rich patrimony of Latin sacred music. Fortunately that seems secure, for now, through monastics, and it would be nice to hear it in parishes on a more frequent basis. Latin may also retain its place at large international gatherings, though it seems increasingly English is taking on that role.
It would be simple to see in a parish which has Spanish and English Masses, for example. You know, the Tower of Babel working its way into such parishes and dioceses and countries.
They predict that within a decade, the majority of American Catholics will be Spanish-speaking. So perhaps they are already aware of it?
Dear Pro Vobis,
I saw a Tower of Babel referenced somewhere else and I thought to myself, I do not think anyone is worried about another universal flood or thinks God physical dwells in Heaven. Other than Babel is associated with the mythos of language dispersion, I do not see the connection. The story is not about the good of a universal language to be sure, nor about the good of not understanding God.
Huh, your graph matches the rise of the television age.
Television, Movies, Cultural crisis, Spirit of Vatican II, et al. Many causes, but one clear fact; The Church, as a whole, has done little to stop the slide. Band-aids for bleeding arteries. The excitement coming out of Vatican II, the open the windows mentality, proved a failure. Our Holy Father, Lord protect and Bless Him, was recently quoted as saying we must “Go Forward, never back”. When one is on the wrong path, the most prudent course of action is to retrace ones steps. Just in the past several weeks we have had:
That is not a fact. That is an opinion, or rather several opinions, lumped together for a conclusion. It is rooted in the fallacy which you dismissed of drawing a relationship from correlations. Does critical thinking also have to be lost in this day of rising modernism, televisions, global warming, vernacular, shoe size, etc.?
To some extent, I’d agree. But perhaps the changes came too fast. We might have had the Mass eventually in the vernacular anyway but arrogance, ignorance, and collecting royalties drove to immediate changes. So much so we don’t have true vernacular but one-size-fits-all for people who barely understand their own national language. And, of course, there will never be a perfect translation into any one of those languages. How many English versions have we had since then and how many still “understand” that “all” will be saved? This is not understanding one’s faith better. Some nebulous vernacular is no guarantee of preserving or stating truth.