Pope: Mass in vernacular helps people understand God, live the faith

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ProVobis said:
And how much longer will the Latin Rite be identified as such if the Pope thinks the more vernacular/vulgar, the better?
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Maybe we’ll call it the Roman Rite instead. After all it is called the Breviarum Romanum and Missale Romanum so it would appears that “Roman” is used interchangeably with Latin.
 
OraLabora said:
Maybe we’ll call it the Roman Rite instead. After all it is called the Breviarum Romanum and Missale Romanum so it would appears that “Roman” is used interchangeably with Latin.
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It does but Roman America? :eek:
 
theoda said:
Why not? If people were better understanding God in the past with the non-vernacular than today with the vernacular, then wouldn’t that mean that the non-vernacular is better?
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I don’t think the vernacular vs the non-vernacular is about “better understanding God” but about “better understanding what is said at Mass”.

This is just my opinion but I would say that the vast majority of people didn’t have much of a clue about what was being said at Mass, understanding-wise and hearing-wise.

One, not that many understood Latin.

Two, not that many besides the Altar Boys even heard much of what the Priest said.

I was an Altar Boy back then and most of what was said at Mass outside of the readings, which were said in the vernacular, was basically a dialogue between the Priest and the Altar Boys since it was usually two Altar Boys.

I don’t know about other Altar Boys but as for me, I knew what to say but for the most part I did NOT know what it meant.

I have seen on here where some people say that the readings were in Latin, pre Vatican II, not where I grew up and went to Mass and the sermon was NOT in Latin either.
 
powerofk said:
As an aside, when I was in college, my pastor told me that they no longer required Latin in many seminaries, including the one he went to. As such, there are many pastors out there (especially diocesan priests) who have very little, if any, knowledge of Latin. I would suspect that this, in and of itself, would be a huge stumbling block.

Regardless, the use of Latin was a changeable discipline, and only held for the Latin Rite. In this respect, it is similar to the requirement for priests in the Latin Rite to be celibate. As for “vernacular” being the “fruit of the Reformation”, IIRC, there were calls well before the “Reformation” for the Mass to be said in the vernacular. In addition, such claims could also be made for non-clerical studying of the Bible. It was discouraged before Vatican II because “only the Church can interpret the Bible”, which remains true.
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As another aside, I went to a discussion concerning Vatican II and it was said that many of the Bishops were at a loss in that they were NOT conversational conversant in Latin, basically knowing enough Latin for theological purposes such as the Mass, and did not have translators which the Protestant observers were supplied with.

One thing about the vernacular is that sometimes one might hear something that just might be great ponderable material whereas with the Latin, it just might only be pretty sounds.

Does the Church teach that only the “higher-ups” are the Church or does the Church teach that “We” are the “Body of Christ” which is what and who the Church Is, Isn’t It?

By the way, don’t you think that the Holy Spirit “can interpret the Bible” and actually wasn’t it Jesus Who said that He would “send the Holy Spirit to guide…”?

Doesn’t the Church also say/teach that the Holy Spirit in involved with, at least, both baptism and confirmation?

Some seem to think/believe that the Holy Spirit is only for the clergy, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

God is NOT bound to work only in ways that we have decided that God can work in.
 
Tom_Baum said:
… did not have translators which the Protestant observers were supplied with.
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Why is there this assumption Protestants don’t understand Latin? After all it was taught in public schools probably more than in Catholic schools. And it was the Anglicans who petitioned Pope Paul to reinstate the Latin Mass. Also more recently the mayor of London expressed his thoughts that it was “absurd” to drop Latin out of the curriculum.
 
ProVobis said:
Precisely my point. In these cases and in other cognate cases, the translation buys you nothing except appease those who have this mental block against anything that sounds Latin or Roman. Either that or satisfy their arrogance and/or ignorance, caring nothing about the probable corruption of the meaning behind the prayers.

And how much longer will the Latin Rite be identified as such if the Pope thinks the more vernacular/vulgar, the better?
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But at some point the meaning needs to be translated so the person in the pew understands it. Why not in the Mass itself?
 
ProVobis said:
Why is there this assumption Protestants don’t understand Latin? After all it was taught in public schools probably more than in Catholic schools. And it was the Anglicans who petitioned Pope Paul to reinstate the Latin Mass. Also more recently the mayor of London expressed his thoughts that it was “absurd” to drop Latin out of the curriculum.
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I’m 56. The year I started high school, was the first year that Latin was no longer compulsory. I never took it as I was more a science and math kind of guy.

By the time I finished high school, Latin wasn’t even offered anymore. It was, BTW a public school. There was no Catholic high school in my town back then. After elementary school we Catholics got shunted into the public system.
 
Michael_Mayo said:
But at some point the meaning needs to be translated so the person in the pew understands it.
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So back to square one, does consubstantialem Patri need to be translated to “consubstantial with the Father” to be understood better? What if I told you it’s actually “consubstantial TO the Father” because Patri is dative, not ablative? See what I mean by corruption in the translation? Why do you want to start your discussion with a corrupted form of a concept?

Here’s the deal.

con(with)sub(under)stantis(stands,exists)+(to)Patri(the Father)

I don’t think with all the prefixes involved this can even be translated into understandable English. You’re going to have to explain it either way in more than a couple of sentences at a minimum.
 
OraLabora said:
I’m 56. The year I started high school, was the first year that Latin was no longer compulsory. I never took it as I was more a science and math kind of guy.

By the time I finished high school, Latin wasn’t even offered anymore. It was, BTW a public school. There was no Catholic high school in my town back then. After elementary school we Catholics got shunted into the public system.
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I think my Catholic high school dropped the requirement in 1965, although I had taken three years of it, dropped out of it because they convinced me it was never to be used again. But I, a physics major, did resume it at the U of I in a classroom with quite a few young ladies who quite passionate about the language. Fun class actually.
 
ProVobis said:
So back to square one, does consubstantialem Patri need to be translated to “consubstantial with the Father” to be understood better? What if I told you it’s actually “consubstantial TO the Father” because Patri is dative, not ablative? See what I mean by corruption in the translation? Why do you want to start your discussion with a corrupted form of a concept?

Here’s the deal.

con(with)sub(under)stantis(stands,exists)+(to)Patri(the Father)

I don’t think with all the prefixes involved this can even be translated into understandable English. You’re going to have to explain it either way in more than a couple of sentences at a minimum.
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Don’t blame the vernacular for an inaccurate translation. Yet even that is better than no translation to one who does not know Latin.
 
ProVobis said:
I think my Catholic high school dropped the requirement in 1965, although I had taken three years of it, dropped out of it because they convinced me it was never to be used again. But I, a physics major, did resume it at the U of I in a classroom with quite a few young ladies who quite passionate about the language. Fun class actually.
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I had it then also and tried to refresh it from time to time through they years.
I am ok with the Psalms but not with other douments.
 
ProVobis said:
So back to square one, does consubstantialem Patri need to be translated to “consubstantial with the Father” to be understood better? What if I told you it’s actually “consubstantial TO the Father” because Patri is dative, not ablative? See what I mean by corruption in the translation? Why do you want to start your discussion with a corrupted form of a concept?

Here’s the deal.

con(with)sub(under)stantis(stands,exists)+(to)Patri(the Father)

I don’t think with all the prefixes involved this can even be translated into understandable English. You’re going to have to explain it either way in more than a couple of sentences at a minimum.
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And that explanation never took place, even in the Latin days. “One in being with the Father” at least made some sense, though not as close a word for word translatrion. I guess that brings us to formal correspondence or dynamic equivalence approach’
 
Michael_Mayo said:
I had it then also and tried to refresh it from time to time through they years.
I am ok with the Psalms but not with other douments.
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I have to admit the documents are tough. They are not easy reading for anyone. (But then neither are some legal documents written in English. I understand many lawyers have to stay up nights trying to understand them.) Perhaps have a group of scholars translate them instead of one person. Latin, just like anything else, is as easy or as difficult as you want it to make it. Good that you can make it with the Psalms.

I just got a PM from someone who wanted me to translate something written on some vase. Heck, I couldn’t even make out the script. Imagine how difficult it must have been for those who tried to read ancient documents in their own language.
 
You know what I find particularly disturbing? The insinuation by some on this and other threads that they would consider abandoning the Church altogether if the Latin Mass would ever make a return. The TLM is the only Mass that Thérèse of Lisieux and many of our Great Saints ever knew! If I were to consider leaving the Catholic Church, the one TRUE Church because of Latin…I’d have to seriously question where my heart was and get my priorities set straight. Just my :twocents:.

Peace, Mark
 
ProVobis said:
I have to admit the documents are tough. They are not easy reading for anyone. (But then neither are some legal documents written in English. I understand many lawyers have to stay up nights trying to understand them.) Perhaps have a group of scholars translate them instead of one person. Latin, just like anything else, is as easy or as difficult as you want it to make it. Good that you can make it with the Psalms.

I just got a PM from someone who wanted me to translate something written on some vase. Heck, I couldn’t even make out the script. Imagine how difficult it must have been for those who tried to read ancient documents in their own language.
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Ya, the scripts, though amazing and beautiful, are hard to read.
Love that vernacular creed. Maybe even atheists would go for it.
 
Mark121359 said:
You know what I find particularly disturbing? The insinuation by some on this and other threads that they would consider abandoning the Church altogether if the Latin Mass would ever make a return. The TLM is the only Mass that Thérèse of Lisieux and many of our Great Saints ever knew! If I were to consider leaving the Catholic Church, the one TRUE Church because of Latin…I’d have to seriously question where my heart was and get my priorities set straight. Just my :twocents:.

Peace, Mark
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We need both and both should be available.
 
Mark121359 said:
You know what I find particularly disturbing? The insinuation by some on this and other threads that they would consider abandoning the Church altogether if the Latin Mass would ever make a return. The TLM is the only Mass that Thérèse of Lisieux and many of our Great Saints ever knew! If I were to consider leaving the Catholic Church, the one TRUE Church because of Latin…I’d have to seriously question where my heart was and get my priorities set straight. Just my :twocents:.

Peace, Mark
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Mark, you should ask them if they want to throw out all their U.S. currency which has Latin on it. And close their eyes whenever the President or House Speaker speaks with the seal of the U.S. behind him.

And supposedly the reason why our country fathers (who were mostly non-Catholic) chose to design it in Latin was to provide a “sense of seriousness” about our undertaking. I believe that to be still true. There are many mottos and other seals with Latin text. Very few object.

answers.com/Q/Why_are_there_Latin_words_on_US_money
 
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