Pope met with Kentucky clerk Kim Davis during his US trip, according to her lawyers

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Lily_Bernans said:
You’re right, Joe. I’m sure the Vatican officials did not research Kim Davis or realize how controversial she is. To them, she was probably just a woman refusing to bow to SSM. All the facts were not known so could not be considered. Like Benedict, I’m sure had all the facts been known about Kim Davis, Pope Francis probably would have not met with her.
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So the duped? Given what he did affirmed Church teaching I doubt that is true. But if we want to go down that path do you believe he has been duped about AGW and immigration?
 
Lily_Bernans said:
You’re right, Joe. I’m sure the Vatican officials did not research Kim Davis or realize how controversial she is. To them, she was probably just a woman refusing to bow to SSM. All the facts were not known so could not be considered. Like Benedict, I’m sure had all the facts been known about Kim Davis, Pope Francis probably would have not met with her.
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You’re “sure”?

DId you ever track down the proof that the Pope was used?
 
Thorolfr said:
For whatever reason the Vatican allowed this meeting to take place, I would have to think that they underestimated the media firestorm that it has created and it has definitely interjected the Pope right into the middle of the Culture Wars that he has criticized in his public speeches and this meeting with Kim Davis has, if anything, fanned the flames of those Culture Wars. 🤷
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Based on what I have read, it seems that what the meeting with Kim Davis has done is actually reminded some people that although they like some of what Pope Francis has said and done, some of the complainers disagree with the Church on issues of sexual morality, abortion and the role of women and men in the Church, and that despite Pope Francis’ comments and actions they like, Pope Francis is still a traditionalist when it comes to opposition to same-sex marriage, and not only that, but other issues such as women’s ordination, contraception etc.

It seems like some who disagree with the Church on some of those above issues, kind of put that to the side because they like Pope Francis, but the meeting with Kim Davis has now reminded people, and they are seeing the larger picture.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
You’re “sure”?

DId you ever track down the proof that the Pope was used?
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Yes, especially the bit about shunning repentant sinners at all costs - protect the Church’s image. Please somebody post that when you find it - that will go a long way to clearing this all up.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Did Thomas More fan the flames of Culture Wars? Was he justified in refusing to acquiesce to Henry’s demand for a divorce? Or was he just being intolerant and imposing a Catholic theocracy?

I believe that the Pope as a practicing Christian could do no other. He is obligated to defend the flock practicing the tenets of the faith, including the Church’s definition of marriage. IMHO, it is unreasonable to demand that Christians in this country violate their faith in their place of employment, including their government duties. I don’t think this is a “hateful” or “intolerant” statement. I am confident religious liberty and gay marriage can coexist. (Kim Davis has received death threats and is avoiding the public eye - that is why it was done undercover, and also I agree that the Pope was not trying to alienate anyone at all here.) It was a peaceful, generous act to a fellow Christian, especially as she is not even a Catholic. To me, this speaks better of the Pope. Oh, and btw, my hair stood on end when I saw the Pope with the Marxist crucifix or with Fidel Castro. But I said to myself - that is my problem - Jesus loves all, even his persecutors. I think this is where the Pope is coming from, seriously. He loves people I don’t like; he loves people you don’t like. I don’t want my Pope acting differently than that.
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If Kim Davis was not such a polarizing figure, I might agree. But she has interjected herself right into the middle not only of the Culture War but of US politics, with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee going to a rally in her honor. She has made a point of leaving the Democratic Party and becoming a Republican. Because the Vatican has refused to comment on this meeting, they have left it all up to Kim Davis, Liberty Counsel, etc. to define and interpret the meaning of this meeting and what took place there. Already, Kim Davis announced on ABC News yesterday, "Just knowing the pope is on track with what we’re doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything.” Kim Davis and her friends are getting all the political mileage and publicity out of this meeting with the Pope that they can.

Everyone knows the stance of the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, but nevertheless, Pope Francis seemed to many gay Catholics to have made a slight opening for them to make some tentative steps back towards the Church and to believe that they might be somewhat welcome there. But after the news of this meeting with Kim Davis, some gay Catholics I know have decided to finally break all their ties with the Church. You might all just say good riddance, but I still think that this meeting with someone as polarizing as Kim Davis was a mistake on the part of the Vatican.
 
Thorolfr said:
If Kim Davis was not such a polarizing figure, I might agree. But she has interjected herself right into the middle not only of the Culture War but of US politics, with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee going to a rally in her honor. She has made a point of leaving the Democratic Party and becoming a Republican. Because the Vatican has refused to comment on this meeting, they have left it all up to Kim Davis, Liberty Counsel, etc. to define and interpret the meaning of this meeting and what took place there. Already, Kim Davis announced on ABC News yesterday, "Just knowing the pope is on track with what we’re doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything.” Kim Davis and her friends are getting all the political mileage and publicity out of this meeting with the Pope that they can.

Everyone knows the stance of the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, but nevertheless, Pope Francis seemed to many gay Catholics to have made a slight opening for them to make some tentative steps back towards the Church and to believe that they might be somewhat welcome there. But after the news of this meeting with Kim Davis, some gay Catholics I know have decided to finally break all their ties with the Church. You might all just say good riddance, but I still think that this meeting with someone as polarizing as Kim Davis was a mistake on the part of the Vatican.
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No, we don’t say good riddance. I don’t know if you and I will ever agree on anything - but we do both claim to be Christians. You know that a Christian is obligated to humble himself and forgive trespasses as well as I do. Struggle to overcome his own sins - including but not just sexual ones. The Christian wants a gay person and Kim Davis both sitting in the pews and working in the same place. You don’t run from conflict; you struggle with it - and live by your faith. Forgiveness. Both ways. This is the only way forward.
 
Thorolfr said:
If Kim Davis was not such a polarizing figure, I might agree. But she has interjected herself right into the middle not only of the Culture War but of US politics, with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee going to a rally in her honor. She has made a point of leaving the Democratic Party and becoming a Republican. Because the Vatican has refused to comment on this meeting, they have left it all up to Kim Davis, Liberty Counsel, etc. to define and interpret the meaning of this meeting and what took place there. Already, Kim Davis announced on ABC News yesterday, "Just knowing the pope is on track with what we’re doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything.” Kim Davis and her friends are getting all the political mileage and publicity out of this meeting with the Pope that they can.

Everyone knows the stance of the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, but nevertheless, Pope Francis seemed to many gay Catholics to have made a slight opening for them to make some tentative steps back towards the Church and to believe that they might be somewhat welcome there. But after the news of this meeting with Kim Davis, some gay Catholics I know have decided to finally break all their ties with the Church. You might all just say good riddance, but I still think that this meeting with someone as polarizing as Kim Davis was a mistake on the part of the Vatican.
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So having a flagrant, open homosexual give the reading at the Papal Mass, and have the virulently pro-LGBT mayor of Philly give speeches isn’t enough? Meeting with Kim Davis privately is the last straw?

Sounds completely reasonable. Let that be a lesson to those who organized the papal visit, their pro-LGBT promotion went to no avail it seems.
 
zz912 said:
So having a flagrant, open homosexual give the reading at the Papal Mass, and have the virulently pro-LGBT mayor of Philly give speeches isn’t enough? Meeting with Kim Davis privately is the last straw?

Sounds completely reasonable. Let that be a lesson to those who organized the papal visit, their pro-LGBT promotion went to no avail it seems.
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Exactly…‘Welcoming’ may mean different things to different people. ‘Welcoming’ for some homosexuals means that you must go against the teachings of Jesus.

I find it curious when I read comments on how Catholics should be more welcoming to homosexuals. It’s not like people are entering the narthex wearing sin tags or say hi I’m an adulterer. Nobody is standing at the door saying you can’t come in. Most Catholics who leave the Church do so because they can not accept a teaching of Jesus. From the very beginning of the Church…we see that in the Bible in the Bread of Life discourse.
 
johnnyc176 said:
Exactly…‘Welcoming’ may mean different things to different people. ‘Welcoming’ for some homosexuals means that you must go against the teachings of Jesus.

I find it curious when I read comments on how Catholics should be more welcoming to homosexuals. It’s not like people are entering the narthex wearing sin tags or say hi I’m an adulterer. Nobody is standing at the door saying you can’t come in. Most Catholics who leave the Church do so because they can not accept a teaching of Jesus. From the very beginning of the Church…we see that in the Bible in the Bread of Life discourse.
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To be fair, a person who is known as homosexual or struggling with SSA would not be welcomed into the social structure of our parish. They would definitely be welcome at Mass or parish programs, but they would have a hard time fitting in and making friends outside of that.

So that person is likely to find a church where their struggle or lifestyle will not interfere with making friends etc…
Friends are important on the journey.
 
zz912 said:
So having a flagrant, open homosexual give the reading at the Papal Mass, and have the virulently pro-LGBT mayor of Philly give speeches isn’t enough? Meeting with Kim Davis privately is the last straw?

Sounds completely reasonable. Let that be a lesson to those who organized the papal visit, their pro-LGBT promotion went to no avail it seems.
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I figured that most of the fallen away Catholics and liberals who were so
infatuated with the Pope were only happy with him because they thought he was
going to come out in favor of gay marriage, against global warming, for immigration,
and other issues dear to liberals’ hearts.
It was predictable that they would quickly change their minds about him when
they discovered that as the leader of the Catholic Church he cannot support
certain cornerstones of the liberal mindset.

The comments on FB last night sure bear that out that prediction.
The newfound fans of Pope Francis seem stunned that he would meet
Kim Davis and say they are seriously reevaluating their opinions of him.

Surprise, surprise. :rolleyes:
 
sarah_j said:
I figured that most of the fallen away Catholics and liberals who were so
infatuated with the Pope were only happy with him because they thought he was
going to come out in favor of gay marriage, against global warming, for immigration,
and other issues dear to liberals’ hearts.
It was predictable that they would quickly change their minds about him when
they discovered that as the leader of the Catholic Church he cannot support
certain cornerstones of the liberal mindset.

The comments on FB last night sure bear that out that prediction.
The newfound fans of Pope Francis seem stunned that he would meet
Kim Davis and say they are seriously reevaluating their opinions of him.

Surprise, surprise. :rolleyes:
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The funny thing is that the information was there and even reported. Long before this visit Pope Francis said male-only priesthood was a settle issue and before he was pope he correctly identified same-sex “marriage” as a “machination of the father of lies.”

The capacity for self-delusion is astounding. Breaking news: The Pope is Catholic. shock :eek:
 
clem456 said:
To be fair, a person who is known as homosexual or struggling with SSA would not be welcomed into the social structure of our parish. They would definitely be welcome at Mass or parish programs, but they would have a hard time fitting in and making friends outside of that.

So that person is likely to find a church where their struggle or lifestyle will not interfere with making friends etc…
Friends are important on the journey.
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Well, I supposed the same would be said of someone who was known to be cheating on his/her spouse too, right?

Or someone who is a known fornicator?
 
scottgun said:
the funny thing is that the information was there and even reported. Long before this visit pope francis said male-only priesthood was a settle issue and before he was pope he correctly identified same-sex “marriage” as a “machination of the father of lies.”

the capacity for self-delusion is astounding. Breaking news: The pope is catholic. shock :eek:
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breaking news at 11: The pope is catholic!
 
Thorolfr said:
If Kim Davis was not such a polarizing figure, I might agree. But she has interjected herself right into the middle not only of the Culture War but of US politics, with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee going to a rally in her honor. She has made a point of leaving the Democratic Party and becoming a Republican. Because the Vatican has refused to comment on this meeting, they have left it all up to Kim Davis, Liberty Counsel, etc. to define and interpret the meaning of this meeting and what took place there. Already, Kim Davis announced on ABC News yesterday, "Just knowing the pope is on track with what we’re doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything.” Kim Davis and her friends are getting all the political mileage and publicity out of this meeting with the Pope that they can.

Everyone knows the stance of the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, but nevertheless, Pope Francis seemed to many gay Catholics to have made a slight opening for them to make some tentative steps back towards the Church and to believe that they might be somewhat welcome there. But after the news of this meeting with Kim Davis, some gay Catholics I know have decided to finally break all their ties with the Church. You might all just say good riddance, but I still think that this meeting with someone as polarizing as Kim Davis was a mistake on the part of the Vatican.
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Words of wisdom. You are exactly right.
 
I actually kind of feel for my “liberal Catholic” counterparts in their dismay and shock on this revelation about the Kim Davis meeting the Pope had. I have been there many times. And I will also add that I see evidence of “conservative Catholics” almost crowing about this, strutting their stuff all through the thread here. I would urge some caution.

I think we should all withhold judgment on how clearly the world understands the Catholicity of our Pope until after the Synod is over. A fair number of twists and turns to the narrative could be coming on a grand scale very soon. Here is a nice piece from Carl Olson. (Short summary: We are not out of the woods yet.)

:frighten:
With Papal Visit Concluded, It’s Full Synod Ahead
As the Synod of Bishops approaches, Catholics are faced with contradictory perceptions and pressing questions about Francis’ longterm goals
National Geographic wonders, “Will Pope Francis change the Vatican, or will the Vatican change him?” The better question is this:“Will Pope Francis uphold and defend Church teaching, or will the confusion deepen?”
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catholicworldreport.com/Item/4207/with_papal_visit_concluded_its_full_synod_ahead.aspx
 
Thorolfr said:
If Kim Davis was not such a polarizing figure, I might agree. But she has interjected herself right into the middle not only of the Culture War but of US politics, with Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee going to a rally in her honor. She has made a point of leaving the Democratic Party and becoming a Republican. Because the Vatican has refused to comment on this meeting, they have left it all up to Kim Davis, Liberty Counsel, etc. to define and interpret the meaning of this meeting and what took place there. Already, Kim Davis announced on ABC News yesterday, "Just knowing the pope is on track with what we’re doing, and agreeing, you know, kind of validates everything.” Kim Davis and her friends are getting all the political mileage and publicity out of this meeting with the Pope that they can.

Everyone knows the stance of the Catholic Church on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, but nevertheless, Pope Francis seemed to many gay Catholics to have made a slight opening for them to make some tentative steps back towards the Church and to believe that they might be somewhat welcome there. But after the news of this meeting with Kim Davis, some gay Catholics I know have decided to finally break all their ties with the Church. You might all just say good riddance, but I still think that this meeting with someone as polarizing as Kim Davis was a mistake on the part of the Vatican.
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What I don’t fully understand (there are many such things) is why did Kim Davis herself attach so much importance to the Pope’s endorsement of her behavior? After all, although she came from a Catholic family, she left the Church and became an Apostolic Pentecostal.
 
meltzerboy said:
What I don’t fully understand (there are many such things) is why did Kim Davis herself attach so much importance to the Pope’s endorsement of her behavior? After all, although she came from a Catholic family, she left the Church and became an Apostolic Pentecostal.
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But that’s really one of Pope Francis’ big missions… to acknowledge the good rather than to condemn based on one aspect of people. That has been what Vatican II has tried to initiate in its ecumenical endeavours. We need to meet people on the common ground of what is right and good in their lives and not divide ourselves based on the ‘heresy’ part. That scares some people but it’s the way forward in evangelisation.

Pope Francis seems to have taken this opportunity to remind that conscientious objection is a human right and what Ms Davis did in staying firm to her beliefs in the face of the onslaught of the gay lobby… was a virtuous act.
 
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