Pope: Other denominations not true churches

[geezerbob]

Fr. Jonathan has a good explanation you should read to get the context of the statement.
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976,00.html

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Robert

Here’s what the head of the Catholic Church Benedict (the Pope)said about salvation;

“Other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.” He said that other Christian denominations are not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore do not have the “means of salvation.”

That’s what the Pope says, but the Bible doesn’t seem to agree.

Robert, that’s not what the Pope said, but what the reporter said in his article. It was his distorted interpretation of the document.

In fact, the Pope didn’t say anything, but essentially re-published the Vatican II document, which you have to read.

In all, it is my opinion that he did this because of the upcoming debate with the Chinese government on the Roman Catholic Church in China, verses the Chinese Catholic Church. The Vatican does not recognize the bishops ordained in the Chinese Catholic Church and most likely will not.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Is it true the Pope said “there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church?”

No, he did not say this.

Read the article by Father Jonathan

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976,00.html

Jim

 

[vern_humphrey]

So where do I start? I’ll try to keep it brief. We disagree about what is said in Matthew 16, CLEARLY.

No, we don’t. We disagree about your interpretation, and you propensity to mis-cast other people’s responses to your posts for your own ends

All I see is Jesus giving Peter and the apostles authority TO TEACH but it says nothing of authority OVER anyone else or the church.

All that about the keys to the kingdom and loosing and binding was just so much hot air, eh?

It does not say a word about successors or infallibility. But Paul does emphasize to the Galatians in chpt 1:8 that it is not WHO preached (including himself or angels!) but WHAT was preached.

All that about the keys to the kingdom and loosing and binding was just so much hot air, eh?

Oh, Vern…YOU are they type of Catholic that give your church a bad name! Good thing I’m secure in my beliefs and not on the fence…because if I were teetering, I would run screaming to any church that wasn’t Catholic! Think about that when you post your pugnacious comments. You ARGUE out of anger instead of teach out of love. Is this a tactic Jesus would have used?

Oh, HJProtestant…YOU are they type of Protestant that give your church a bad name! Good thing I’m secure in my beliefs and not on the fence…because if I were teetering, I would run screaming to any church that wasn’t Protestant! Think about that when you post your pugnacious comments. Would Jesus have twisted a comment that an argument was discredited, and pretended his opponsent said the Bible was discredited? You ARGUE out of anger instead of teach out of love. Is this a tactic Jesus would have used?

It is indeed, sad, that someone like you is so prevalent on this thread…

It is indeed, sad, that someone like you is so prevalent on this thread

you are combative instead instructive, angry instead of loving, and quite honestly not someone I want to waste my time with.

you are combative instead instructive, angry instead of loving, and quite honestly not someone I want to waste my time with.

I am learning nothing from you and while I came into this thread hoping to learn and understand a little more about the RCC from real people, you just seem like another angry blogger that I could find on any secular forum.

I am re-learning a lot from you and while I came into this thread hoping to learn and understand a little more about the Protestant attitudes toward Catholics from real people, you just seem like another angry blogger that I could find on any Anti-Catnholic forum.

I see no difference between you and some pagan off the street. As a follower of Christ (which I much prefer over Christian or Protestant), I have worked hard over the last years to see past the stereotypes that are promoted about Catholics, but you just wiped away years of hard work.

And you want that to stand as an example of your Christian Charity?

It’s really too bad. I hope I’m not the only you’ve chased out of your threads, but I doubt it.

GOOD BYE

It is too bad – you could have learned something, had you not been so anxious to pick a fight, and so willing to distort what others say in order to accomplish that goal.

 

[Walt_Oliver]

I have removed a couple of posts from the board. You know who you are and what you posted. Please use this as guidance for making future posts. Thanks.

 

[Kevin42]

I really had no idea that this was going to become such big news. While my first post in this thread said that this is nothing new, many of my Protestant friends seem to feel otherwise. I had to spend two hours last night discussing this with a friend who felt that the Pope said Protestants were going to hell. Although at the end he still wasn’t overly pleased, I think he was much less angry about it… .

 

[imamom]

friend who felt that the Pope said Protestants were going to hell. .

Haha and Protestants/non-Catholics say the same about us! I was told this in an email, when wanting to join a low-carb Christian yahoogroup!

 

[Kevin42]

And he actually did imply that himself at certain times throughout the conversation. What I really didn’t understand was him saying that ‘part of the Bible is in error’. How do you engage someone like that in a discussion about faith ? Oh well, it seemed to end on a decent (not great) note.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And he actually did imply that himself at certain times throughout the conversation. What I really didn’t understand was him saying that ‘part of the Bible is in error’. How do you engage someone like that in a discussion about faith ? Oh well, it seemed to end on a decent (not great) note.

If you’'e talking about the recent discussion, I said his argument was old and discredited (which it is.) He falsely claimed I said the **Bible ** was discredited.

 

[rlg94086]

I had a similar conversation with a Romanian Baptist friend of mine. Unfortunately, the conversation was cut short. He told me “a lot of people are upset,” and I explained that all the document does is reiterate what the Church has always taught. Once he agreed with that, he went to “why now?” Hopefully, I’ll be able to finish the discussion.

I’m glad the document was released. It clarifies where everyone stands. Too many Catholics think that it doesn’t matter which Church you belong to, as long as it’s Christian. This is false ecumenism.

I really had no idea that this was going to become such big news. While my first post in this thread said that this is nothing new, many of my Protestant friends seem to feel otherwise. I had to spend two hours last night discussing this with a friend who felt that the Pope said Protestants were going to hell. Although at the end he still wasn’t overly pleased, I think he was much less angry about it… .

 

[estesbob]

I had a similar conversation with a Romanian Baptist friend of mine. Unfortunately, the conversation was cut short. He told me “a lot of people are upset,” and I explained that all the document does is reiterate what the Church has always taught. Once he agreed with that, he went to “why now?” Hopefully, I’ll be able to finish the discussion.

.

The “why now” is a good example of how the Magestrium works. The reason they commented now is that many dissidents have been taking this paragraph out of Lumen Gentum

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society,** subsists** in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity*.

And claimed the usage of the word “subsists” meant that other Church’s were legitimate. Now I don’t claim to know all the nuances of the argument but it had became widespread enough for the Vatican to step in and set the record straight.

In many ways this is exactly what Humane Vitae did with regards to ABC-it was not a declaration of a new doctrine but an affirmation of what the Doctrine had been all along. it was issued when it was because it was a “hot topic” of the time with many catholics claiming the Church did not forbid ABC

 

[rlg94086]

Thanks Bob…that is basically my answer to the “why now” question. It could have been said a couple of years ago, or the Vatican could have waited even longer, but why? I think it needed clarification, so they clarified. Any timing would have been decried in the same manner as this was.

The “why now” is a good example of how the Magestrium works. The reason they commented now is that many dissidents have been taking this paragraph out of Lumen Gentum

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society,** subsists*** in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

And claimed the usage of the word “subsists” meant that other Church’s were legitimate. Now I don’t claim to know all the nuances of the argument but it had became widespread enough for the Vatican to step in and set the record straight.

In many ways this is exactly what Humane Vitae did with regards to ABC-it was not a declaration of a new doctrine but an affirmation of what the Doctrine had been all along. it was issued when it was because it was a “hot topic” of the time with many catholics claiming the Church did not forbid ABC

 

[christcnection1]

The “why now” is a good example of how the Magestrium works. The reason they commented now is that many dissidents have been taking this paragraph out of Lumen Gentum

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society,** subsists*** in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

And claimed the usage of the word “subsists” meant that other Church’s were legitimate. Now I don’t claim to know all the nuances of the argument but it had became widespread enough for the Vatican to step in and set the record straight.

In many ways this is exactly what Humane Vitae did with regards to ABC-it was not a declaration of a new doctrine but an affirmation of what the Doctrine had been all along. it was issued when it was because it was a “hot topic” of the time with many catholics claiming the Church did not forbid ABC

Amen brother…

What amazes me is this knee-jerk attitude from many of our separated brethren. Instead of taking a step back and discovering what the Church truly means, they jump to radical conclusions, based on elementary misunderstandings.

One would think that they should ask further questions before assuming they know what the Church truly believes, but this should not be any surprise. The Church is often rejected based on a caricature version of the truth, and not the truth as official taught.

That being said, some of the media is likely helping to fuel tension to foster disunity.

 

[rlg94086]

That being said, some of the media is likely helping to fuel tension to foster disunity.

Yep, there is definite checklist they consider:

1. Is the story anti-Christian? Check…great!
2. Is the story anti-Catholic? Check…even better!
3. Does the story pit Catholics against other Christians? Check…jackpot!!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Amen brother…

What amazes me is this knee-jerk attitude from many of our separated brethren. Instead of taking a step back and discovering what the Church truly means, they jump to radical conclusions, based on elementary misunderstandings.

One would think that they should ask further questions before assuming they know what the Church truly believes, but this should not be any surprise. The Church is often rejected based on a caricature version of the truth, and not the truth as official taught.

That being said, some of the media is likely helping to fuel tension to foster disunity.

The Catholic Church is the declared enemy of certain political elements and hence of the mainstream media.

It does’t matter what the Church does – release a statement or not – it will be distorted and used against the Church.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yep, there is definite checklist they consider:

1. Is the story anti-Christian? Check…great!
2. Is the story anti-Catholic? Check…even better!
3. Does the story pit Catholics against other Christians? Check…jackpot!!

1. If not, can we spin it that way … yeah, Baby!!

You note there was no link in any of the orginal, slanted stories – they didn’t want readers clicking and reading what the Church really said and comparing it with their spin.

 

[goodcatholicman]

Wow! I have had phone calls on this one! It is as if I made the claim myself. My question to the Protestants is why they care what the Pope says about anything? They deny the Pope’s authority and then get frothy when he says something they don’t like. Being in the South though, and being the sole Catholic in the family, I am treated as if suddenly I don’t believe anyone else is a Christian. Fun times abound…

 

[Kevin42]

I think all of us Catholics need to be keeping each other in our prayers. I have encountered such virulent statements about the Pope from some of my friends that it has been difficult to remain charitable in my conversations with them about this. I’ll certainly be praying that God grants us His grace and strength when we are put in a position of discussing this with non-Catholics.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think all of us Catholics need to be keeping each other in our prayers. I have encountered such virulent statements about the Pope from some of my friends that it has been difficult to remain charitable in my conversations with them about this. I’ll certainly be praying that God grants us His grace and strength when we are put in a position of discussing this with non-Catholics.

There is no question that with this false, misleading and scurrilous story, the spin-meisters of the media have lanuched a vicious attack on us.

But so what? We grew and flourished under persecution from our earliest days.

 

[duskyjewel]

When DH told me this statement had been released, my response was “yeah…and?” There’s nothing new here.

I mean, the reason we belong to the Catholic Church is because we think the other churches are wrong about something. The reason Baptists are Baptist, Lutherans are Lutherans, Methodists are Methodists, and Pentecostals are Pentecostals, is because they all think their churches are right and the others are wrong about something. Duh…

So the Pope said he thinks the Catholic Church is right about everything, and that those who disagree are wrong on those issues. Well, if he’s leading this church, I should sure as heck hope he thinks that!