E
estesbob
Guest
Celibacy is a discipline-not a doctrine. The Pope could do away with celeibacy with the swipe of his pen.
So what teachings do you think the Church should change?
- Status
So what teachings do you think the Church should change?
B
bobzills
Guest
I think that in the present climate, this would be a good idea.
B
bobzills
Guest
Did not Cardinal Humbertus in his letter of excommunication to Michael Cerularius in 1054, state that one of the reasons for the excommunication was that the Greeks had a married clergy?
why did Cardinal Humbertus mention this as a reason for excommunication if it was purely a disciplinary matter? Or is this another change in Catholic teaching?
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Why? Whart has celebary got to do with the subject of this thread?
B
bobzills
Guest
Somone asked a question as to what changes i would like to see. I answered his question. I agree that his question does not have anything to do with the subject of the thread. I wasn’t sure as to whether it would have been better not to answer the question posed or to answer it.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
C
christcnection1
Guest
I think it’s exciting!!! :bounce::bounce::bounce:
Uhh hmmm…
Not so much…
Bobzills,
We love you, but we think you’ve exhausted your point. Perhaps you should consider hitting the dusty trail.
God Bless,
JB
Uhh hmmm…
Not so much…
Bobzills,
We love you, but we think you’ve exhausted your point. Perhaps you should consider hitting the dusty trail.
God Bless,
JB
C
christcnection1
Guest
I think it’s exciting!!! :bounce::bounce::bounce:
Uhh hmmm…
Not so much…
Bobzills,
We love you, but we think you’ve exhausted your point. Perhaps you should consider hitting the dusty trail.
God Bless,
JB
B
bobzills
Guest
?I think it’s exciting!!! :bounce::bounce::bounce:
Uhh hmmm…
Not so much…
Bobzills,
We love you, but we think you’ve exhausted your point. Perhaps you should consider hitting the dusty trail.
God Bless,
JB
My understanding was that the topic was whether or not other Churches are true churches. You people seemed bored with the topic, so why are you posting? I have tried to stay on topic by giving quotes from other times and from different Popes as to what they had to say on the topic? Am I to undertand that your response to what the Popes have declared on this issue is boredom?
Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905:
“And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”
Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio, May 27, 1832: “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… "
St. Augustine (+426): “Consequently both those who have not heard the gospel and those who, having heard it, and having been changed for the better, did not receive perseverance… none of these are separated from that lump which is known to be damned, as all are going… into condemnation.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great, quoted in Summo Iugiter Studio, 590-604:
“The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.”
Pope Clement VI, Super quibusdam, Sept. 20, 1351:
“In the second place, we ask whether you and the Armenians obedient to you believe that no man of the wayfarers outside the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience to the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved.”
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 2 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7, 1547, ex cathedra: “If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5], are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema.”
E
El_camino
Guest
The Catholic Church still maintains all these beliefs…
Let me ellaborate
If you read the CONTEXT of all this you will realize that Pope St. Pius X and Benedict XIV were talking about PEOPLE who know where the truth is, and yet they, because of pride or whatever other reason, resist to seek it… **This is they are IGNORANT because they KNOWINGLY want to be… **
The CHurch still believes that those who PURPOSELY and knowingly reject the truth or reject to seek CANNOT be saved…
THIS IS 100% true… HERETICS CANNOT be saved and you can only be saved through the Catholic religion… Heretics are those who KNOWING where the truth is, they, because of pride or some other sinful reason, decide to reject it… Today, most protestants and others CANNOT be considered heretics, because most of them, without fault of their own is that they are not in the truth; thus, most of them are seeking God sincerely.
Now, those who PROTESTANTS that are saved, they are saved through the Catholic religion, because their faith, hope and love joins them to Christ and therefore to the Catholic religion in ways we do not even imagine.
You must read in context to what St. Augustine was referring… I think this is either misquoted or taken out of context, can you tell me the citation for this? as St. Augustine, in other writings is known to accept that it is possible for some who, without fault of their own, do not know the Gospel, to be saved…
CONTINUES…
E
El_camino
Guest
CORRECT… anyone who is truly OUTSIDE the church cannot be saved, such is the case of the heretics… Those who, without fault of their own are not FORMALLY members of the Catholic church, but that seek God with a sincere heart, are joined to her through the faith, hope and Love they show, in ways we cannot even imagine.
Again, this is directed to those who KNOWINGLY reject the truth… not those who without fault of their own do so, but that, with a sincere heart seek God.
THis was not said by Pope Paul III, this was said by the Council of Trent… period…
The same Council speaks of BAPTISM of DESIRE and baptism of BLOOD… which says that those who die without being baptized by water but that were sincerely wanting to come to God, can be saved…
NO… it is not TAUGHT different… it is not the O.T. that saves the JEW, it is CHRIST, to whom he is JOINED by the faith, hope and loves he shows, which he bases on the incomplete knowledge he has of God (i.e., the OLD TESTAMENT). This is so as long as he has not come to the truth without fault of his own.
**The situation of the JEWS that do not come FORMALLY to CHRIST without fault of their own, but that show faith, hope and love, is EXACTLY the same as the situation of the Patriarchs of the Old Testament (i.e., Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, etc). They, without fault of their own did not come to full knowledge of Christ, and yet you would not doubt that they are in Heaven. **
NO where has the CHurch changed her teaching. The only thing that has CHANGED rather is people (such as yourself) wanting to interpret privately what the CHURCH has taught in the past on their own…
Many blessings,
E.C.
C
christcnection1
Guest
http://yankeeschick.mlblogs.com/yankees_fans_are_the_true/images/broken_record.jpg
round and round we go…
This part of the conversation is not so interesting. Not only that, it’s potentially harmful because it misrepresents some truths about the Catholic faith.
Thank you El_Camino for reiterating the truth of these issues.
Our separated brethren love the Lord and are brothers and sisters in Christ.
round and round we go…
This part of the conversation is not so interesting. Not only that, it’s potentially harmful because it misrepresents some truths about the Catholic faith.
Thank you El_Camino for reiterating the truth of these issues.
Our separated brethren love the Lord and are brothers and sisters in Christ.
B
bobzills
Guest
There is the statement by Cardinal Kasper: “the Church believes that Judaism . . . is salvific for [the Jews] because God is faithful to his promises.”
M
mercygate
Guest
Bob. Are you just here to be contentious? **Yesterday **we demonstrated that Kasper’s statement was NOT a magisterial document and does not carry the weight of Apostolic teaching. God is “faithful to his promises” but that does not necessarily mean that salvation may be attained through the old law. All salvation is through Christ, whose Body is the Church.
J
Jaypeeto4
Guest
The only unforgivable sin,
the sin that will separate a man or woman from salvation,
is final impenitence - deliberate resistance to the degree of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit that they DO HAVE.
That is “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” – a final refusal
to surrender to God as he witnesses to you by the Holy Spirit.
Doctrine itself doesn’t save anyone.
Doctrine is VERY IMPORTANT, but doctrine is a gracious gift given by God to serve as guideposts for our walk with Christ, so that we will “know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
It is our belief as Catholics that the Catholic Faith is the Fullness of the Revealed truth. 100%. The Eastern Orthodox have 99%.
The Protestants about 85%. ( I’m just throwing out numbers here,
I’m not pressing these figures, just trying to make a point ).
Why would anyone want to settle for 85% when he can have 100% as a free gift from God??
Now, God expects us to accept the Truth 100%.
However, not everyone is aware of 100% of the Truth.
But they are still Christians. The only way they would be Formal heretics is if they KNEW the 100% truth, KNEW it to be true,
and REJECT it. Arius, for example, was a Formal Heretic.
He KNEW that the historic Christian faith handed down from Apostolic Times taught that Jesus was God Almighty.
He REJECTED that and came up with his own theory that Jesus was a highly exalted CREATURE.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
the sin that will separate a man or woman from salvation,
is final impenitence - deliberate resistance to the degree of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit that they DO HAVE.
That is “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” – a final refusal
to surrender to God as he witnesses to you by the Holy Spirit.
Doctrine itself doesn’t save anyone.
Doctrine is VERY IMPORTANT, but doctrine is a gracious gift given by God to serve as guideposts for our walk with Christ, so that we will “know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
It is our belief as Catholics that the Catholic Faith is the Fullness of the Revealed truth. 100%. The Eastern Orthodox have 99%.
The Protestants about 85%. ( I’m just throwing out numbers here,
I’m not pressing these figures, just trying to make a point ).
Why would anyone want to settle for 85% when he can have 100% as a free gift from God??
Now, God expects us to accept the Truth 100%.
However, not everyone is aware of 100% of the Truth.
But they are still Christians. The only way they would be Formal heretics is if they KNEW the 100% truth, KNEW it to be true,
and REJECT it. Arius, for example, was a Formal Heretic.
He KNEW that the historic Christian faith handed down from Apostolic Times taught that Jesus was God Almighty.
He REJECTED that and came up with his own theory that Jesus was a highly exalted CREATURE.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
B
bobzills
Guest
I didn’t see where the Pope had said anything against what Cardinal Kasper said?
M
mercygate
Guest
Does he have to? As someone said earlier on this thread: The Pope has declared that H2O is water.
E
El_camino
Guest
The JEWS come to GOD through whatever little they know about GOD. This is how they GET their faith, Love and Hope in God… and when it is NOT through their own fault that they do not arrive to the fullness of the revealed truth that can only be found in the Holy Catholic Church, God does not holds it against them… Thus, when they die they are saved through Christ, because of their faith, hope and love, although they did not know him while they were alive.
IT IS THE EXACT same way with the Patriarchs of the O.T (from Abraham to Moses)… They did not come FORMALLY to Christ while they were alive, but, because of the faith, hope and love they showed, which came to them by the little they knew about God, they were joined to Christ and thus saved by Christ. This is why the Patriarch did not enter heaven until Christ redeemed them… (thus the Apostles creed says that CHrist descended into Hades to free the patriarchs and ascend to Heaven with them)
Christ is the only one that can save both Gentiles and Jews… the bible says it.
Now, the PROMISE given to JUDAISM by God, do you know what promise that is??
That they will be SAVED by one of his own, one that comes from their own people, a descendant from the House of David, to be exact… THAT is the promise!!!.
So, indeed, the Jews are saved by the Promise God made to them. …
Now, obviously, we are called to evangelize the Jews and other to come to the Holy Catholic Church, because the further away from the Church you are, the more vulnerable you are…
Many blessings,
E.C.
B
bobzills
Guest
No. It is no longer acceptable to evangelize the Jews.
See “Reflections on Covenant and Mission,” a joint Catholic-Jewish document :
“A deepening appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people . . . lead
E
El_camino
Guest
That is because Cardinal KASPER did not really say anything wrong, as the PROMISE of SALVATION to the JEWS IN JUDAISM is JESUS CHRIST… it clearly says it in the Old Testament.
Many blessings,
E.C.
- Status