Pope: Other denominations not true churches

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chris_molter said:
I really think it has more to do with the SSPX types than the Eastern Orthodox. I think Pope Benedict is clarifying the “est” versus “subsistit” clause in Dominus Iesus because that particular change has been a major bone of contention between Catholics.
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Bingo. The motu proprio may have been fine and good in its own right, but the reason it was so important, and repeatedly discussed and reworked before being released was to entice the SSPX crowd back into the fold (without annoying the anti-TLM bishops too much). This CDF statement is part of the same overture - the Vatican is basically asking traditionalists “Would you like fries with that?”

As for complaints about MSNBC, I would say those are rather misguided, and don’t give much credit to the PR people and spin doctors at the Vatican. MSNBC, like the other secular news organizations reporting on this, knows that when the Catholic Church tells another church that it isn’t really a church, them’s fightin’ words. It doesn’t matter that it’s basically a repetition from 7 years ago - it’s news because the Vatican has decided to rub salt in the wound again.

The Vatican PR gurus knew they were pushing buttons, but went ahead anyway - because the Curia, and especially the pope wanted to make a big splash. The target audience was not Protestants or Orthodox, who will probably roll their collective eyes at this document. The target audience was as chris molter pointed out, those in schism, or those contemplating schism.
 
Digitonomy said:
Bingo. The motu proprio may have been fine and good in its own right, but the reason it was so important, and repeatedly discussed and reworked before being released was to entice the SSPX crowd back into the fold (without annoying the anti-TLM bishops too much). This CDF statement is part of the same overture - the Vatican is basically asking traditionalists “Would you like fries with that?”
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Oh please, I’m hearing the same thing over and over again- that the Motu Proprio and now this documents are merely “concessions” to the traditionalists. Has anyone else even considered that the Holy Father had the entirety of the Church in mind when he issued the Motu Proprio? Is it, and this new document, just a bone thrown to the backwards trads?
I think not. The actions of the Holy Father are for the good of the entirety of the Church, even if some Catholics dont like to see it that way. This new document from the CDF is an attempt to clear up a gross misinterpretation of Lumen Gentium that has plagued the Church since Vatican II. The Motu Proprio is an attempt to enrich the Liturgical life of the entire Church, not just to lure back the SSPX.
 
Digitonomy said:
Bingo. The motu proprio may have been fine and good in its own right, but the reason it was so important, and repeatedly discussed and reworked before being released was to entice the SSPX crowd back into the fold (without annoying the anti-TLM bishops too much). This CDF statement is part of the same overture - the Vatican is basically asking traditionalists “Would you like fries with that?”
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Oh please, I’m hearing the same thing over and over again- that the Motu Proprio and now this documents are merely “concessions” to the traditionalists. Has anyone else even considered that the Holy Father had the entirety of the Church in mind when he issued the Motu Proprio? Is it, and this new document, just a bone thrown to the backwards trads?
I think not. The actions of the Holy Father are for the good of the entirety of the Church, even if some Catholics dont like to see it that way. This new document from the CDF is an attempt to clear up a gross misinterpretation of Lumen Gentium that has plagued the Church since Vatican II. The Motu Proprio is an attempt to enrich the Liturgical life of the entire Church, not just to lure back the SSPX.
 
Sounds like good solid Orthodoxy. This is the right time for this statement. It is showing that the Catholic Church is the One True Faith, and is attacking the ever-growing heresy of Pluralism.
 
Christophorus said:
Gracia et Pax Vobiscum Bosun,

For some time Roman Catholics have generously reached out toward our Eastern Orthodox Brothers and Sisters as well as our Protestant Brothers and Sisters with great care and patients but such generosity appears to have been at the expense of our own ‘faith-claims’ as the Church of the Living God and eroded many Roman Catholics confidence and identity in themselves. Most fail to see the actual distinction between the Catholic Church and other communities of Christians whom for many reasons may not have access to the Fullness of the Faith.

**Personally it is high time that the Vatican remind Catholics who we really.
**
God Bless.
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I totally agree with this! 👍
 
There was something very telling in my local paper this morning. On the front page was the story about our Pope’s statement on Tuesday and the Protestant outrage that followed.

Then on page two was an article about the actress Tori Spelling and how she became an ordained minister online and proudly performed a gay wedding in California last weekend.

There was something very appropriate about those two stories coming out on the same day. Could anyone in their right mind think Spelling’s little oranization could be called a “church?”
 
Caesar said:
Oh please, I’m hearing the same thing over and over again- that the Motu Proprio and now this documents are merely “concessions” to the traditionalists
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Interesting that you’re hearing that, but not relevant to my post, since I didn’t say that. The Holy Father isn’t really conceding anything. He is, however, reiterating certain truths and not discussing others. As someone who has been playing inside baseball at the Vatican for many years, and who likewise has been dealing with the concerns of those outside the Vatican during that time, Benedict is well-attuned to the impact of Vatican statements.

Maybe it’s true as you seem to imply that he isn’t aware or doesn’t care that this document sweetens the pot for those traditionalists who have left the Church by emphasizing traditional teachings. If so, it’s fortunate that he stumbled into good timing and press for this purpose, but unfortunate that he may fail to effectively use these tools to promote his message in the future.
 
being a protestant myself, i don’t understand why other protestants are getting upset. first off all, this has been the RCC’s teaching for a long time. second of all, most protestants i’ve known, feel that catholics are misguided at best, going to hell at worst. besides, HE’S THE POPE!!! what do you expect? you think he’s gonna say catholics are evil and should die? a lot of these people that are crying about this don’t care about what catholics have to say, so why are they crying now?
 
I guess it’s just a “see I told you Catholics are crazy” thing.

Many Protestants I know personally do not even consider Catholics to be Christian, so the Pope’s comments have really set them off.
 
BigVinny said:
I guess it’s just a “see I told you Catholics are crazy” thing.

Many Protestants I know personally do not even consider Catholics to be Christian, so the Pope’s comments have really set them off.
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and that’s what i don’t understand. if a protestant doesn’t consider catholics to be christian, then why do they care if the Pope says they aren’t in the true Church? if a pagan (and i’m not comparing catholics to pagans) said i was going to hell, was decieved, whatever; i wouldn’t get upset. i think the protestants who are upset about this are being stupid, either that or maybe something is gnawing on their conscience (or spirit) and feel threatened somehow. i swear, i don’t think i’ll ever understand humans
 
guardian1 said:
and that’s what i don’t understand. if a protestant doesn’t consider catholics to be christian, then why do they care if the Pope says they aren’t in the true Church? if a pagan (and i’m not comparing catholics to pagans) said i was going to hell, was decieved, whatever; i wouldn’t get upset. i think the protestants who are upset about this are being stupid, either that or maybe something is gnawing on their conscience (or spirit) and feel threatened somehow. i swear, i don’t think i’ll ever understand humans
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Agreed. Obviously peole believe that their religious choice was the right one, or else they would have made another choice. If a Buddhist cared what I thought, you would have to question the strength of his faith.

I was driving through Georgia last month and I heard a looney toon on AM radio talking about how Catholics were going to hell for worshipping “their Virgin Mama.” My wife and I looked at each other, shook our heads, and changed the channel.

Point being I didn’t get all up in arms about it, because I believe he’s wrong. If someone believes the Pope is wrong, then fine, but move on.
 
rpp said:
Meanwhile, others have expressed consternation at the timing. This consternation is shared by both the secular news media sources and Catholic news services. And me.
.
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What’s wrong with the timing?

Why is it wrong to release this document now, as opposed to last year or next year?
 
vern_humphrey said:
What’s wrong with the timing?

Why is it wrong to release this document now, as opposed to last year or next year?
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Vern as we well know there would never be a good time for these corrections.

I love this Pope. He is clearing up the misunderstandings that have been around for years.👍
 
mercygate said:
When he was elected, he said he took the name “Benedict” partly because the last Pope Benedict had a short term, and his would be also. I see him as taking care of important business before somebody comes in behind him, who might not share his convictions or his sense of urgency in these matters.
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Code:
When I went to Fr Groeschel’s conference in Williamsville 2 years ago, he said that teh Pope was so humble that he took the name of St Benedict Joseph Labre:

Why Benedict Joseph Labre? He was a Frenchman born in 1748 whose love for God was so great that he longed to enter the contemplative religious life. Repeatedly his desires were thwarted by the mental illness that afflicted him throughout his life. Inspired by God, he spent the final thirteen years of his life as a pilgrim beggar in the city of Rome where he was noted for his devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and Mary, Mother of God. He died in Rome April 16, 1783 and was canonized by Pope Leo XIII on December 8, 1881. Pope Leo said at Benedict Joseph Labre’s canonization, “He was holiness itself.”
 
BigVinny said:
Many Protestants I know personally do not even consider Catholics to be Christian, so the Pope’s comments have really set them off.
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That’s the irony of it. These people don’t consider Catholics to even be Christians. Yet they get all up in arms when the Catholic Church reminds everyone that Protestant Christian Communities have rejected apostolic succession (a fact which many of them will openly admit).

Anyway, I have more respect for the people who think that Catholics aren’t Christians and openly state their beliefs than the people who water down their beliefs to be as inclusive as possible. If only every Protestant denomination would follow the Catholic Church’s lead and issue statements why they think they are the one true church containing the fullness of the truth we could get on with some real ecumenism.
 
KathleenElsie said:
I love this Pope. He is clearing up the misunderstandings that have been around for years.👍
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I am going to pray for our Benedict XVI to serve for a very, very long time because it is obvious that he wants to restore the Church to the fundamentals that have been lost in our secular society. We have gotten too lax and too liberal on many issues, and I applaud our Pope for coming out to speak the truth. It isn’t his job to make everyone feel good about themselves.

I thank the good Lord above that we have a Pope such as this in such a sinful time. His leadership and outspoken nature are much needed.
 
Just to emphasize an important point, the MSNBC piece claims Benedict XVI said non-Catholics do not have the “means of salvation.”

Benedict XVI said no such thing. The document referenced in the MSNBC ([sarcasm]that paragon of astute reporting about religion[/sarcasm]) piece is Dominus Iesus, which uses the phrase “means of salvation” twice. In neither instance does the Church claim that non-Catholics cannot enter Heaven.“Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.

“If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation. However, “all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged”.Rather than take MSNBC’s word for what the document says, people ought to actually read the document. Doing so might be a tad more informative, especially given that the MSNBC couldn’t even provide a link to the document.

Folks could also check the commentary about the document, which reiterates the stated Church doctrine of Dominus Iesus that non-Catholic Christians can receive salvation.

So, to sum up, the MSNBC piece was wrong when it stated that Benedict XVI said non-Catholics do not have “the means of salvation.” This error is probably not deliberate, but most likely results from lazy fact-checking by someone who didn’t actually bother to read the documents being written about.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
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