Pope: Other denominations not true churches

[smokey888]

I was devastated at reading this age old ‘I’m better than you’. It was in all newspapers and also made one of the late night t.v. talk shows. This late night host put it this way: “God loves everyone but he loves me more, hu”. You see how that doesn’t even make sense, well that’s the reaction you get when you bring this up.

I grew up prior to Vatican II and I can tell you the atmosphere between Catholics and Protestants wasn’t that pretty! In short, what the Pope did, was to pick it up from the closet where it was being stored and rubbed it in their faces!! with a ‘I’m better than you’ attitude.

This is not how you show the Love of Christ! This is not how you attain sainthood! This forces many ‘from the table’. Sure, it will win a few but it will also assure that many don’t even give it a second thought! The examples of John Paul II did much more for the Church than announcing from the throne of heaven that we are better! At this moment, I’m embarrassed being a Catholic, which I find very un-universal but more stuffed away in it’s rightious manners.

There’s also something to the fact that this has come forward just after elevating the use of the Latin Mass. There is obviously a connection there. Also, not long ago he was in big trouble with the Muslims because he quoted others, now he has merely quoted the truth. There seems to be a lot of George Bush in him, as he chooses to fight first then hopefully draw in the other powers later … good luck!

 

[Ahimsa]

Spread the Gospel, and use words if necessary.

 

[mlchance]

There seems to be a lot of George Bush in him, as he chooses to fight first then hopefully draw in the other powers later … good luck!

Wow. So even Benedict XVI is President Bush’s fault.



Actually read the documents, please. The links have been posted in this thread. They have nothing to do with whom God loves more. The latest one, which I’ve yet to see the media report accurately, is little more than a extended dictionary entry. It answers a few questions, defines “Church” according to Catholic theology, and then explains the difference between a Church and a non-Church Christian community.

But I suppose jerking knees is easier than actual study.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[fix]

I was devastated at reading this age old ‘I’m better than you’. It was in all newspapers and also made one of the late night t.v. talk shows. This late night host put it this way: “God loves everyone but he loves me more, hu”. You see how that doesn’t even make sense, well that’s the reaction you get when you bring this up.

That is the reaction from folks who do not read the document or grasp what the Church really teaches.

**

I grew up prior to Vatican II and I can tell you the atmosphere between Catholics and Protestants wasn’t that pretty! In short, what the Pope did, was to pick it up from the closet where it was being stored and rubbed it in their faces!! with a ‘I’m better than you’ attitude.

**Holding such a view does not mean that view is accurate. Why not look at what the Pope actually says rather than relying on faulty opinions?
**

This is not how you show the Love of Christ! This is not how you attain sainthood! This forces many ‘from the table’.

Really? Why is truth contary to Christ?

Sure, it will win a few but it will also assure that many don’t even give it a second thought! The examples of John Paul II did much more for the Church than announcing from the throne of heaven that we are better! At this moment, I’m embarrassed being a Catholic, which I find very un-universal but more stuffed away in it’s rightious manners.

**Again, misperception is the problem.
**

There’s also something to the fact that this has come forward just after elevating the use of the Latin Mass. There is obviously a connection there. Also, not long ago he was in big trouble with the Muslims because he quoted others, now he has merely quoted the truth. There seems to be a lot of George Bush in him, as he chooses to fight first then hopefully draw in the other powers later … good luck!

??
**

 

[KathleenElsie]

I totally agree.

I also agree that it isn’t the Holy Father’s job to make everyone “feel good”. How many times did our Lord leave his adversaries feeling uncomfortable, unhappy or angry when he spoke the truth?

The truth hurts and it sets us free!

And I bet there were many times (read the Bible) that the Apostles didn’t like the whole truth. Remember the cock crowing?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I was devastated at reading this age old ‘I’m better than you’. It was in all newspapers and also made one of the late night t.v. talk shows. This late night host put it this way: “God loves everyone but he loves me more, hu”. You see how that doesn’t even make sense, well that’s the reaction you get when you bring this up.

I grew up prior to Vatican II and I can tell you the atmosphere between Catholics and Protestants wasn’t that pretty! In short, what the Pope did, was to pick it up from the closet where it was being stored and rubbed it in their faces!! with a ‘I’m better than you’ attitude.

This is not how you show the Love of Christ! This is not how you attain sainthood! This forces many ‘from the table’. Sure, it will win a few but it will also assure that many don’t even give it a second thought! The examples of John Paul II did much more for the Church than announcing from the throne of heaven that we are better! At this moment, I’m embarrassed being a Catholic, which I find very un-universal but more stuffed away in it’s rightious manners.

There’s also something to the fact that this has come forward just after elevating the use of the Latin Mass. There is obviously a connection there. Also, not long ago he was in big trouble with the Muslims because he quoted others, now he has merely quoted the truth. There seems to be a lot of George Bush in him, as he chooses to fight first then hopefully draw in the other powers later … good luck!

I believe that many baptised people feel the way you do. I can only say PLEASE read what they Catholic Church teaches and has taught since the beginning of time. If anyone and everyone’s "TRUTH’ was the same there would have been no reason for Christ to have been sacrafices for us.

God Bless

 

[4HisChurch]

Gracia et Pax Vobiscum Bosun,

For some time Roman Catholics have generously reached out toward our Eastern Orthodox Brothers and Sisters as well as our Protestant Brothers and Sisters with great care and patients but such generosity appears to have been at the expense of our own ‘faith-claims’ as the Church of the Living God and eroded many Roman Catholics confidence and identity in themselves. Most fail to see the actual distinction between the Catholic Church and other communities of Christians whom for many reasons may not have access to the Fullness of the Faith.

Personally it is high time that the Vatican remind Catholics who we really.

God Bless.

 

[Nohome]

I was devastated at reading this age old ‘I’m better than you’.

I just shrugged my shoulders, as did most of the non-Catholic world.

Nohome

 

[4HisChurch]

The fact that there are Catholics who are quite upset about this document shows that there are, indeed, many Catholics who have an incomplete understanding of the Church and her teachings.

Benedict has said in the past, I believe, that he thought the church would be smaller but stronger in the future. I think he forsaw that emphasizing the Church’s true teachings on issues such as this would result in many people realizing where their beliefs are not in line with those of the Church.

 

[Elzee]

Don’t know if you’ve seen the article by Fr. Jonathon (Fox News Consultant) on this, but I’d like your opinions. I’m getting more disappointed in this man. You need to read the whole article on fox.com - parts are good, but parts sound apologetic to me and it seems to take him a lot of text to say very little. He says the church isn’t “going back to pre-Vatican II theology” (I didn’t realize our theology has changed?). I also don’t like the first couple lines of these next two paragraphs I copied below. The Bible says much more - baptism is needed, works are needed. He’s saying the truth - but he’s only giving a partial truth, in my opinion, to try and pacify those who took offense at the Pope. I also don’t like his use of 'long-standing doctrine of the Catholic Church’ - this is the long-standing doctrine of Christ, passed on by the Church. Am I being too critical?

The Pope, along with all Christians, believes salvation comes from belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one’s personal Lord and Savior, as the only mediator between God and man. The Bible says as much. But in this document, Pope Benedict also affirms the long-standing doctrine of the Catholic Church that Jesus chose to work out this plan of salvation through his Church,under the direction of his 12 apostles and their successors (bishops in communion with the Pope):
“Jesus established here on earth only one Church and instituted it as a visible and spiritual community that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. …] This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him.”

 

[vern_humphrey]

The fact that there are Catholics who are quite upset about this document shows that there are, indeed, many Catholics who have an incomplete understanding of the Church and her teachings.

Benedict has said in the past, I believe, that he thought the church would be smaller but stronger in the future. I think he forsaw that emphasizing the Church’s true teachings on issues such as this would result in many people realizing where their beliefs are not in line with those of the Church.

Read these forums long enough, and you’ll find there are those who consider themselves Catholics who have the wierdest ideas about the Church. One of my favorite is a complaint about the “revelations” of Vatican II.

 

[4HisChurch]

I agree. I got tired of hearing “we (meaning the Church) don’t do that anymore” from everyone around me growing up. Its nice to see, 40 years later, that we’re finally getting some
clarification!

 

[Celeste88]

I read this in the paper the other day. It saddened me. Does the Pope want to cause divisions between Christians? My husband, who is a Lutheran read the article and he’s angry, what am I supposed to think…that he’s going to hell? What do I tell my sister and brother in law? They are both good people but of a Protestant demonination. Do I call my sister and tell her to go back to the Catholic church or you will rot in hell? Sure, I can do that but that will only cause ill will in the family and not produce much good.

 

[4HisChurch]

I wouldn’t believe everything (or anything, really) that you hear from the mainstream media about the Catholic Church.

The document does not say that non-Catholics are not saved. In fact, it states,

"It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church"

~laviecatholique.blogspot.com/

 

[vern_humphrey]

I read this in the paper the other day. It saddened me. Does the Pope want to cause divisions between Christians? My husband, who is a Lutheran read the article and he’s angry, what am I supposed to think…that he’s going to hell? What do I tell my sister and brother in law? They are both good people but of a Protestant demonination. Do I call my sister and tell her to go back to the Catholic church or you will rot in hell? Sure, I can do that but that will only cause ill will in the family and not produce much good.

Did your husband read the article – which was written to make people angry at the Chruch – or did he read the document itself?

The whole five questions are posted on this thread – go back and read them. There’s nothing new there.

 

[fix]

I read this in the paper the other day. It saddened me. Does the Pope want to cause divisions between Christians? My husband, who is a Lutheran read the article and he’s angry, what am I supposed to think…that he’s going to hell? What do I tell my sister and brother in law? They are both good people but of a Protestant demonination. Do I call my sister and tell her to go back to the Catholic church or you will rot in hell? Sure, I can do that but that will only cause ill will in the family and not produce much good.

In all fairness, do you not think it prudent to read what the Church actually teaches in this matter rather than rely on some media report?

 

[HJProtestant]

Hmmm…somehow my replies so far have not shown up on the forum…at least I can’t find them. I am playing catch up on the thread…you all are very busy little beavers…I mean that respectfully. And speaking of respect, I have read some disparaging remarks about Protestants thinking “they are better than or superior to Catholics” along with some smarty comments and even bleeps! Just remember, everything you do and say on this forum represents the Catholic and I will remember that everything that I say represents the Prostestant stance. My hope going into this was that I could learn from you and maybe one or two of you could learn from me. This can only happen in a positive environment. So, please, can we be respectful of one another? I appreciate those of you who have been kind…and if I am unkind, please call me on it. Believe me when I say, I am here out of love and passion for my Savior, Jesus Christ. I am not here to make enemies with other children of God. Moving on…

It seems there was some confusion on a couple of my posts so, to clarify…the “infallibility” comment was made separate from my “by faith” comment.

First, about papal infallibility, I was challenged on this by another member (sorry…no time to scroll up and figure out who it was) because the Pope wasn’t in his Chair (his capitalization, not mine) and “nothing new” was proclaimed. I’ll accept that Catholics would not take this as a proof of against papal infallibility (as I stated), as long as you accept that papal infallibility is not Biblical (I know, I know, tradition…I’ll tackle that in another forum).

Secondly, my response about “faith” was directed at the kind lady that I quoted who stated that the Pope’s message was just reiterating the Catholic Dogma that there is no salvation outside of the RCC. I responded with a Galatians scripture quoted verbatim from the Catholic translation of the Bible. Vern rocked my world, and told me that this part of the Bible had been “long ago discredited”. To his response I replied:

"WOW. I had no idea that ANY of the Bible had been LONG ago discredited as you claim! If this is so…what then is Catholicism based on!!! I am literally in disbelief that you would claim ANY part of GOD’s WORD has been discredited! This is the first time I have ever heard that God’s word CAN and HAS been discredited! WOW. That speaks VOLUMES. It begs the question…who has the power to discredit God’s word? Since the Bible is God-inspired (not some made up story) who has authority over God? I would really like to hear the Catholic view point on this…and from someone who can speak without eye-rolling me at the end…

FYI: From the Protestant view point, some derive their beliefs from the Scripture and others force their beliefs on the Scripture…and what doesn’t work out their way…I guess from what you are saying…is discredited.

“All Scripture (not some, not only the convenient stuff) is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every god work.” II Tim 3:16&17 (Emphasis mine)

Or…is this another one of those “discredited” passages…?"

My apologies if that seemed a little sassy.

Now my response to mom2three who actually gave me something other than smart comments…
The passage James 2:24 that you used to proove that we are not saved by “faith alone” is somewhat incorrect. The passage reads that we are JUSTIFIED. The definition of “justification” from my biblical dictionary says “The act of God placing us in a right relationship with Him through his declaration of our innocence from guilt or blame”. This has everything to do with furthering our personal relationship with Him AFTER we have been saved through faith…it says nothing of salvation itself. As far as CCC838…well, there’s no scripture to back that up or it would have been included, so this is not biblical as you claimed.
As far as baptism (which you brought up, not me) I feel this is a discussion all on it’s own and I don’t want to start this debate up on this thread because it a loooooooooonggg debated subject and out of respect for the thread don’t want to get too off-subject. But rest assured, by beliefs of baptism are biblical.

I’m sorry if I missed some stuff…the forum has been so busy that I can’t get in sometimes!

 

[HJProtestant]

I read this in the paper the other day. It saddened me. Does the Pope want to cause divisions between Christians? My husband, who is a Lutheran read the article and he’s angry, what am I supposed to think…that he’s going to hell? What do I tell my sister and brother in law? They are both good people but of a Protestant demonination. Do I call my sister and tell her to go back to the Catholic church or you will rot in hell? Sure, I can do that but that will only cause ill will in the family and not produce much good.

Celeste, please remember that our salvation is not determined by any man. You’re right, telling your family they are going to hell is not a good approach. I suggest to speak with them and start a dialogue about what salvation really is and how you can attain it.

 

[Brendan]

I read this in the paper the other day. It saddened me. Does the Pope want to cause divisions between Christians?

No, of course not, But how can anyone have a dialogue without first stating what they hold to be true. That is what happened here.

This is not something new, it was stated in Vatican II and in Dominus Jesu.

My husband, who is a Lutheran read the article and he’s angry, what am I supposed to think…that he’s going to hell? What do I tell my sister and brother in law? They are both good people but of a Protestant demonination. Do I call my sister and tell her to go back to the Catholic church or you will rot in hell? Sure, I can do that but that will only cause ill will in the family and not produce much good.

Have any of them actually read what the document says, or are they just relying on a news organization to tell them.

 

[4HisChurch]

First, about papal infallibility, I was challenged on this by another member (sorry…no time to scroll up and figure out who it was) because the Pope wasn’t in his Chair (his capitalization, not mine) and “nothing new” was proclaimed. I’ll accept that Catholics would not take this as a proof of against papal infallibility (as I stated), as long as you accept that papal infallibility is not Biblical (I know, I know, tradition…I’ll tackle that in another forum).

Now my response to mom2three who actually gave me something other than smart comments…
The passage James 2:24 that you used to proove that we are not saved by “faith alone” is somewhat incorrect. The passage reads that we are JUSTIFIED. The definition of “justification” from my biblical dictionary says “The act of God placing us in a right relationship with Him through his declaration of our innocence from guilt or blame”. This has everything to do with furthering our personal relationship with Him AFTER we have been saved through faith…it says nothing of salvation itself. As far as CCC838…well, there’s no scripture to back that up or it would have been included, so this is not biblical as you claimed.
As far as baptism (which you brought up, not me) I feel this is a discussion all on it’s own and I don’t want to start this debate up on this thread because it a loooooooooonggg debated subject and out of respect for the thread don’t want to get too off-subject. But rest assured, by beliefs of baptism are biblical.

I’m sorry if I missed some stuff…the forum has been so busy that I can’t get in sometimes!

I wanted to address two of your points.

1. Papal infallibility and scripture.
   In Matthew 16:19, Jesus gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, which includes the power to bind and loose.

And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

1. Justification.

The Bible states, in James 2:24 that

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

To me, that is pretty clear that James is saying we are NOT justified by Faith Alone. You are right, it does state that we ARE justified. But it says we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

God bless.