Pope: Other denominations not true churches

[irenaeus1]

Exactly, I couldn’t agree more – you’ve made my case! Then, why even bring it up AGAIN?!! Tell me, what possible good will come from this by bringing it up MORE? Especially when you compare any good to the harm it will cause. Please note too, that nothing was said about how out-of-control Catholics were during the time of Martin Luther when they broke away originally. There’s a movie out there (wish I knew the name of it) about what all Luther saw (from his perspective, not ours) and it wasn’t pretty at all; but note, nothing was said about this in all his proofs. It was just very poorly done, I don’t care 'how “RIGHT” we are, it was poorly thought out.

If you read my last sentence, I tell you why it was brought up again - “These are not new teachings, but are reaffirmations and reiterations of what the Church has always taught because of certain teachers and theologians within the Church were promoting erroneous and ambiguous views.” Unfortunately, there are some people who apparently think that there is a statute of limitations on certain teachings, and if one does not hear of them for some time or contradictory teachings are allowed to run abound, it confuses those who are less knowledgeable in the faith. God often repeats Himself in the Bible. Why?

 

[Nordar]

I hate to repeat this, but again, I am baffled at the people who are upset about this. especially Catholics.

Well I am not so baffled at other religions, because quite frankly their being upset at us I can never figure out. Catholics who are upset at this they are a whole other story, where have they been?
You are right, just what is it exactly they are upset about? The Truth? It is not like this is some long hidden secret that all of a sudden has been unleashed on us. I don’t get it either, I am as baffled as you are!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, obviously somebody thought you meant the Bible because they took shots at you… I was not the one who said those mean things about you and I don’t condone them…you are still acting defensively.

You were the one who disingenuously pretended that I meant the Bible was discredited. Others, reading only your words and not my orginal post, assumed you were sincere.

Secondly, my response to childofmary1143 was to disprove her statement that there is no salvation outside of the church because Paul says in Galatians says time and time again that it is through faith (in Christ not the church) that we are saved. I didn’t “imply” anything…I was referring to a very important passage in God’s Word.

Where does Paul say you can be saved without faith? Where does he say you can reject the teachings of the Apostles and their successors?

I am not “advancing” anything that Paul did not mean in that scripture!

Yes, you are.

I would love to continue this conversation…but first I would like to find the responses you are talking about that I must have missed and research them. Also, I have to tend to the kids so I say “good bye” for now…

Go back through the thread and read them.

Remember, however, **you **are the one advancing the proposition that Paul meant you can reject the Apostles and their successors, discount their teaching, and still be counted as having faith. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[irenaeus1]

The above would have been a much much better way of addressing it. (see bold above) It didn’t need to be repeated, we have sins too, i.e. Martin Luther tried very hard to bring them to light.

Don’t you get what you just said - The above would have been a much much better way of addressing it. The point is that JPII and B16 have stated this, YET some theologians can’t get it through their thick heads. So it has to be stated again with even more clarity.

 

[smokey888]

Read the document!! It tells you why it was produced.

I don’t doubt at all that it does. It’s probably very right but the long and the short of it is this – we just delivered a sucker punch to protestants. I’ve explained this until I’m blue and red in the face and you don’t get it. It was done poorly, we may be right but the punch to the gut makes me sick.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I apologize. I thought he was stating something factual from what you had stated and from another thread, so I was not going to search for it.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

Thank you.

My meaning – if one reads the original post – is that the argument that this pericope somehow discounts Christ’s establishment of a Church, His commissioning of His Apostles, and His gift of authority to them, is an old and long-discredited proposition.

 

[rpp]

I won’t use bold any longer as some think it’s yelling.

No, I have not read the document(s). But take a look at the title above: “Other denominations not true churches”. Do you think that will cause the great majority to seek out these documents? Just a yes or no please.

The news article was a distortion. It is like trying to learn science or medicine from the newspaper, the reporters either get is wrong or (prepare for a shock) intentionally distort it. That is why we shoiuld never assume that a story about Church documents or Church teachings is necessarily correct.

Remember news organizations make money by advertising. If they have a boring headline like “Church Reaffirms Position Held for 500 years” they will not get much attention. But if they say “Pope: 'Other Denominations Not True Churches” that distortion will get people to click on the link or buy a newspaper. If the reporter or editor happens to not like the Catholic Church, maybe they are pro-abortion liberals (I know, shockingly rare in the news media, right?) then they can get Catholics to start hating their own Church by distorting Her teachings.

Please read the documents otherwise you are only doing what the writers want you to do; succumb to their propaganda. It is an easy trap to fall into and we all do from time to time. At those times we rely on our friends to help us learn the truth.

Oh, and thank you for using a normal typeface!

 

[smokey888]

Don’t you get what you just said - The above would have been a much much better way of addressing it. The point is that JPII and B16 have stated this, YET some theologians can’t get it through their thick heads.

Then go talk with those few rather than frustrate and anger the millions.

 

[smokey888]

The news article was a distortion. It is like trying to learn science or medicine from the newspaper, the reporters either get is wrong or (prepare for a shock) intentionally distort it. That is why we shoiuld never assume that a story about Church documents or Church teachings is necessarily correct.

Remember news organizations make money by advertising. If they have a boring headline like “Church Reaffirms Position Held for 500 years” they will not get much attention. But if they say “Pope: 'Other Denominations Not True Churches” that distortion will get people to click on the link or buy a newspaper. If the reporter or editor happens to not like the Catholic Church, maybe they are pro-abortion liberals (I know, shockingly rare in the news media, right?) then they can get Catholics to start hating their own Church by distorting Her teachings.

Please read the documents otherwise you are only doing what the writers want you to do; succumb to their propaganda. It is an easy trap to fall into and we all do from time to time. At those times we rely on our friends to help us learn the truth.

Then please send this to the Pope.

 

[irenaeus1]

Vern, obviously somebody thought you meant the Bible because they took shots at you…

And I apologized to him for it. Again, not excusing myself, but I was speed reading these posts in order to catch up, and I initially thought that this conversation was held elsewhere, so I did not verify the context and assumed that HJ was correct in his assessment. I should have qualified that statement because I’m sure anyone here would agree that if a person did indeed hold to the position of discrediting scripture then they are either ignorant, deluded, or something worse, but only if they indeed stated that position, which is what I did not verify.

Again, my apologies.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t doubt at all that it does.

You still haven’t read it?

It’s been posted in this thread over and over!

It’s probably very right but the long and the short of it is this – we just delivered a sucker punch to protestants.

We haven’t done anything – it’s the media and those who are always willing to believe the worst about the Church – including some Catholics.

I’ve explained this until I’m blue and red in the face and you don’t get it.

Since you haven’t read the document, you explanations are lacking.

It was done poorly, we may be right but the punch to the gut makes me sick.

No, you make yourself sick – with your presumption that the Church is always wrong.

 

[rpp]

Then go talk with those few rather than frustrate and anger the millions.

There will always be people who hate the Church and will use any opportunity to publicly criticize her. You will never please these people. Period.

An honest reading and knowledge of the scripture confirms that Christ did indeed establish on one Church. Thoughtful Protestants, who make up the silent majority, all realize that they originated from the Catholic Church and are related to her in some distant way.

The timing of this is to provide the correct basis for ecumenical dialog. And to remind Catholics, especially those involved in eccumenical dialog, in a not so subtle way, that indifferentism is a heresy.

It may also (my personal speculation) be paving the way for some more documents clarifying certain Church teachings that have become “confused” in the wake of Vatican II.

 

[irenaeus1]

I don’t doubt at all that it does. It’s probably very right but the long and the short of it is this – we just delivered a sucker punch to protestants. I’ve explained this until I’m blue and red in the face and you don’t get it. It was done poorly, we may be right but the punch to the gut makes me sick.

The Church cannot control how the mass media is going to spin the news story, so what do you mean by that it was done poorly. I agree that it was skewed and reported poorly, but that’s to be expected by those whose objective is never to paint the Church in a positive light.

 

[rpp]

The news article was a distortion. It is like trying to learn science or medicine from the newspaper, the reporters either get is wrong or (prepare for a shock) intentionally distort it. That is why we shoiuld never assume that a story about Church documents or Church teachings is necessarily correct.

Remember news organizations make money by advertising. If they have a boring headline like “Church Reaffirms Position Held for 500 years” they will not get much attention. But if they say “Pope: 'Other Denominations Not True Churches” that distortion will get people to click on the link or buy a newspaper. If the reporter or editor happens to not like the Catholic Church, maybe they are pro-abortion liberals (I know, shockingly rare in the news media, right?) then they can get Catholics to start hating their own Church by distorting Her teachings.

Please read the documents otherwise you are only doing what the writers want you to do; succumb to their propaganda. It is an easy trap to fall into and we all do from time to time. At those times we rely on our friends to help us learn the truth.

Oh, and thank you for using a normal typeface!

Then please send this to the Pope.

I do not understand what you mean exactly. If you think the Holy Father should water down teachings because some people might be offended, where would be end up? THAT would, in fact, be evil.

 

[irenaeus1]

Then go talk with those few rather than frustrate and anger the millions.

Unfortunately, they aren’t few. And by millions, if you mean Catholics, then their mere anger demonstrates that they needed to be reminded.

 

[Nordar]

I won’t use bold any longer as some think it’s yelling.

No, I have not read the document(s). But take a look at the title above: “Other denominations not true churches”. Do you think that will cause the great majority to seek out these documents? Just a yes or no please.

That was the title of a news headline and a distortion of the Documents. So I will ask you again Did you read the documents? You have been on here posting about how poorly Our Holy Father did this and how Poorly he did that, and hollering about how bad these Documents are and you have yet to read them.

 

[brianwalden]

Read the documents?

Yes, read the document. Is that an outlandish request? It’s short, you can read it in a few minutes. And it usually helps to know what you’re talking about before you go off on a rant.

He should have figured out what 99.9% of people would have been reading the day after!

Yeah, just like Jesus should have figured out what the people would have though when he told them they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood.

It was all done very poorly.

Releasing the document in multiple languages simultaneously with an accompanying commentary (which might even be longer than the document itself) to help clear up any misconceptions one might have is done poorly? I’m sorry but the Vatican doesn’t control the main stream media, you should be wise enough to go to the horse’s mouth whenever the media tells you something about the Church.

My protestant friends will not be reading the documents.

Why don’t you print it out and give it to them. I’d bet you could fit it on 2 sheets of paper. Maybe then they can explain what they believe the Church to be and you can have a nice dialog. That’s how ecumenism works, you be honest and open with each other about the things you disagree on it rather than sweeping them under the rug.

Why on earth did he even feel the need to bring this up.

The Church must proclaim the truth, it’s obvious from the reaction to this very mundane document that many people don’t understand what the Church believes about itself. That’s why it had to be said.

Here’s what my Protestant friends revert to … ‘Martin Luther had a very good point, the church was way out of control then.’ And we were!

And many Protestant Communities and heterodox Catholics are way out control today. What’s your point? Theology isn’t about what happened then or what is happening now, it’s about timeless truth. And what does this have to do with the document?

Rather than emphasising ‘we’re number 1’, we should be repeating, ‘we were out of control back then and we’re sorry we caused you so much pain’.

Protestants did lots of bad things too, the argument might even be made that they did worse things to Catholics than Catholics did to them. Why is all the guilt on Catholics? Instead of working to reform the Church from the inside they tore it apart.

Then, maybe lead into how it is that we have this history but just to lay it out as it was, was nothing short of a giant step back!

So what you’re really saying is that you haven’t read the incredibly short document (maybe even shorter they this post). For example, many Orthodox Christians, while they didn’t agree with the Church’s position, were very appreciative of this document because it lays out the doctrine in a frank and clear manner. If this was a step back, it’s because we’ve been on the wrong trail and to keep going forward would only make us more lost. This document takes us back to the trail head so that we can head down the proper path.

Yes yes, the documents are more than likely right, correct, we win; however, remember this: 'Your never right unless your psychologically ‘right’. No matter 'how right you are, if you don’t use common sense, you’re way out of control - again. No matter how ‘RIGHT’ you are, if you act like a fool, you’re a fool, no if’s - and’s or but’s.

I don’t know what psychologically right means, but I think I get what you’re trying to say. Hear me out and let me know if I got the gist of it. So would you say that someone who doesn’t have the common sense to take five minutes to read a document before they write a diatribe about it is way out of control? Is someone foolish enough to do such a thing a fool, no ifs, ands or buts?

Just to lay out those facts doesn’t address the whole picture of this history and when laying out those ‘facts’ he should have been thinking more about how it all came about and our once but passed, protestant friends.

Read the document!!! It’s written as carefully as it can be. The only friends who will leave over this are the ones who aren’t grounded enough to realize that (gasp!!!) Catholics and Protestants believe different and sometimes contradicting things. Anyone who can’t admit this and allow the people they disagree to express what they believe isn’t worth having an ecumenical discussion with.

continued…

 

[brianwalden]

…continued

If I hit you (speaking of knee-jerks) are you going to first sit down and say lets see now, what all has happen here? No your not, your going to first feel pain and anger. Well welcome to what we have now.

The Church didn’t hit anyone. The media wrote about this document in the most sensational, divisive way possible. That’s what the media does; stories about how bad the Catholic Church is always make for good reading. You bought into their spin hook, line, and sinker. If you’re going to be mad at someone be mad at the media or at people who get all upset without even reading the document. But don’t go off on the Church when you don’t know what you’re talking about.

 

[irenaeus1]

I’m sure if the mainstream media was around in Jesus’ day, they would have had a field day with Jesus’ statement, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.” Or Peter’s words, “There is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” I mean, look at all the upset and offended pagans. No, the media does not and should not dissuade us from teaching the truth.

 

[smokey888]

You still haven’t read it?

It’s been posted in this thread over and over!

Why would I have to read something that I agree with. I know it’s right - it’s perfect, we’re number 1, no argument here.

We haven’t done anything – it’s the media and those who are always willing to believe the worst about the Church – including some Catholics.

That’s funny, I wonder why only I have heard so many painful remarks from those ‘others’. And if it’s the media, wouldn’t you think you might consider that and possibly approach the whole subject … differently?

Since you haven’t read the document, you explanations are lacking.

Really? What’s lacking about protestant friends not wanting to talk about it. Oh, and I should just jump in and say, “hey, if you would go look up the documents, it will all be better”; yeah right, that’s how life works hu, NOT!!

No, you make yourself sick – with your presumption that the Church is always wrong.

I thought the Church was doing GREAT, then out of the blue came this Latin Mass and I thought, ok, that’s ok … then came the title from above (not my words) “Pope: Other denominations not true churches”! This doesn’t stike you 1955ish or more? Hey, this will bring them up to the table to talk won’t it. Our RCIA’s have always had people in them for the last x number of years. I don’t recall this many back in the 50’s or 60’s – so, lets step back in time and stir the pot, bring in a little Latin un-understandable magic, let’m know we’re number 1 while we’ve got law suits up and down every coast, oh yeah, this will do it. The Church is NOT always wrong, but yesterday was a very sad day in it’s history.