Pope Pius Display Includes Rabbi's Thank You

[OneTrueCathApos]

Kaninchen, why can’t you just accept the fact that Pius helped save your people? Why question the 800,000 number? Perhaps it was even more? Do we question the 6 million Jews who were supposedly killed by Hitler? If one questions that number, all hell breaks loose, but if one questions the pope’s number, it’s different.
Be grateful.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen, why can’t you just accept the fact that Pius helped save your people? Why question the 800,000 number? Perhaps it was even more? Do we question the 6 million Jews who were supposedly killed by Hitler? If one questions that number, all hell breaks loose, but if one questions the pope’s number, it’s different.

People have been questioning the 6 million number since the period itself, the whole thing has been researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked.

I ask which 800,000 Jews and where and I’m told to shut up and be grateful by somebody who wonders why Mossad and Israel didn’t fight Nazi Germany.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

People have been questioning the 6 million number since the period itself, the whole thing has been researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked.

I ask which 800,000 Jews and where and I’m told to shut up and be grateful by somebody who wonders why Mossad and Israel didn’t fight Nazi Germany.

Do you yourself question the 6 million?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

People have been questioning the 6 million number since the period itself, the whole thing has been researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked.

I ask which 800,000 Jews and where and I’m told to shut up and be grateful by somebody who wonders why Mossad and Israel didn’t fight Nazi Germany.

Bottom line here, the 800,000 number is based on the testimony of the post-war government of the recently created state of Israel which recognized and honored that pope’s contribution.
The Israeli’s recognized the figure and a forest of many trees was planted in commemoration in the Negeb, SE of Jerusalem.
More than half the Jews of Rome were sheltered.
A former Israeli diplomat in Italy stated "The Catholic church saved more Jewish lives during the war than all other churches, religious institutions and rescue organizations put together.
The Vatican was under constant surveillance and threats, he did what he could.
**Oskar Schindler, a Roman Catholic, is regarded as a “Righteous Gentile” by many Jews for saving the lives of some 3,000-4,000 Jews in his factories. Why then is Pope Pius XII so unjustly criticized despite saving 800,000 Jewish lives? **

 

[Kaninchen]

Do you yourself question the 6 million?

Well, I’m from a German Jewish family so you could say that the whole thing has been an abiding interest of mine since I was young.

6 million is an estimate based on things like the pre-war Jewish populations of the countries occupied by the Reich and the numbers remaining after the war. It’s impossible to say with any precision how many died it may have even been more but certainly not much less. At the Wansee conference (January 1942), Heydrich laid out plans for the Final Solution of the European Jewish question which was to involve approximately (German estimates) 11 million Jews - 6 million was about as far as they got before the Red Army overran them.

Now, all these figures are available and fairly detailed - unlike, it would appear, the 800,000/865,000.

Have you found out about why Israel didn’t go to war with the Reich yet?

 

[Kaninchen]

Bottom line here, the 800,000 number is based on the testimony of the post-war government of the recently created state of Israel

No it isn’t.

The Israeli’s recognized the figure and a forest of many trees was planted in commemoration in the Negeb, SE of Jerusalem.

No they weren’t.

 

[faithfulone]

Have you found out about why Israel didn’t go to war with the Reich yet?

Could it be because the country of Israel did NOT exist at the time

 

[Kaninchen]

Could it be because the country of Israel did NOT exist at the time

No hinting!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

No it isn’t.

No they weren’t.

These are historic facts, for you to deny them is ridiculous. You don’t know your own Jewish roots.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Well, I’m from a German Jewish family so you could say that the whole thing has been an abiding interest of mine since I was young.

6 million is an estimate based on things like the pre-war Jewish populations of the countries occupied by the Reich and the numbers remaining after the war. It’s impossible to say with any precision how many died it may have even been more but certainly not much less. At the Wansee conference (January 1942), Heydrich laid out plans for the Final Solution of the European Jewish question which was to involve approximately (German estimates) 11 million Jews - 6 million was about as far as they got before the Red Army overran them.

Now, all these figures are available and fairly detailed - unlike, it would appear, the 800,000/865,000.

Have you found out about why Israel didn’t go to war with the Reich yet?

You still are avoiding the question which is a yes or no answer. Do you believe it was 6 million Jews or not? Show me where the 6 million figure is detailed, but I show you where the 800,000 figure comes from yet you still don’t believe. Sort of like when Jesus performed many miracles in front of the Jews, yet they still denied Him.

 

[Ag_not]

The 800,000 is referring to the number of jews saved by the popes actions NOT 800,000 jews were killed in totality under the nazi’s.

 

[Kaninchen]

You still are avoiding the question which is a yes or no answer.

Nonsense.

Do you believe it was 6 million Jews or not? Show me where the 6 million figure is detailed, but I show you where the 800,000 figure comes from yet you still don’t believe. Sort of like when Jesus performed many miracles in front of the Jews, yet they still denied Him.

Good grief.

 

[Kaninchen]

These are historic facts, for you to deny them is ridiculous. You don’t know your own Jewish roots.

The point is that they are not ‘historic facts’ - the Israeli Government has never said that Pius saved 800,000 Jews and the trees are not there.

 

[Kaninchen]

For anybody interested, this is what I wrote on another thread (with a little additional information).

This seems to have its origins on the question of the deportation of Hungarian Jews - in which case it’s both an overstatement of his ‘actions’ (he was just one of a number of people - the Allies, the Swedes etc - putting pressure on Horthy, who was also under considerable pressure from the fact that the Russians were in Poland and only a couple of months from invading Hungary itself) and just plain wrong in terms of the numbers - of Hungary’s 650,000 Jews (pre-war), 450,000 perished. Of the 750,000 Jews in wartime Hungary (boundary changes) over 400,000 had been transported by the time of the various protests.

It wasn’t exactly a brave move on the part of Pius, by the way, the Americans had been in Rome for a month.

Perhaps it’s another 800,000 Jews somewhere?

 

[Ag_not]

I may have missed something on this thread - but, what has it got to do with the jews?

If Pope Benedict wants to put forward Pope Pius for beatification, so what?

He’s a catholic pope, the jews aren’t going to pray to him for intercession, probably millions of jews never heard of him - so when did it become de rigour for jews to tell a catholic Pope what he should and shouldn’t do?

Fill in the gaps for me - what am I missing.

 

[Kaninchen]

I may have missed something on this thread - but, what has it got to do with the jews?

If Pope Benedict wants to put forward Pope Pius for beatification, so what?

He’s a catholic pope, the jews aren’t going to pray to him for intercession, probably millions of jews never heard of him - so when did it become de rigour for jews to tell a catholic Pope what he should and shouldn’t do?

Fill in the gaps for me - what am I missing.

I’d agree with the idea that Pius is a matter for Catholics.

Others are, I would argue, free to comment when questions under discussion involve them. The OP is about Pius and Jews, so only Catholics should be allowed to comment?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

For anybody interested, this is what I wrote on another thread (with a little additional information).

This seems to have its origins on the question of the deportation of Hungarian Jews - in which case it’s both an overstatement of his ‘actions’ (he was just one of a number of people - the Allies, the Swedes etc - putting pressure on Horthy, who was also under considerable pressure from the fact that the Russians were in Poland and only a couple of months from invading Hungary itself) and just plain wrong in terms of the numbers - of Hungary’s 650,000 Jews (pre-war), 450,000 perished. Of the 750,000 Jews in wartime Hungary (boundary changes) over 400,000 had been transported by the time of the various protests.

It wasn’t exactly a brave move on the part of Pius, by the way, the Americans had been in Rome for a month.

Perhaps it’s another 800,000 Jews somewhere?

The pope protested particularly against the deportations of Jews in Slovakia, Hungary, and vichy, France, since these were formerly Catholic countries where Fascists had gained control and they still had a majority of Catholic citizens.
In Hungary, the Nunciature used thousands of blank and forged forms to help Jews escape.
As a matter of simple historical fact, Rabbi Israel Zolli, the chief Rabbi of Rome, was received into the Catholic church in 1945 after the war was over. He was baptized entirely of his own free will and asked Pius XII, with whom he had worked closely in the saving of Jewish lives, to be his Godfather. Dr. Zolli chose the name Eugenio his baptismal name because it was Pius XII’s own name.
The trees were also shown to pope Paul VI with ceremony on his first state visit to Israel.
( It seems history is left out somewhere in the lives of the Jewish people, that there is only negativity and doubt.)

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I may have missed something on this thread - but, what has it got to do with the jews?

If Pope Benedict wants to put forward Pope Pius for beatification, so what?

He’s a catholic pope, the jews aren’t going to pray to him for intercession, probably millions of jews never heard of him - so when did it become de rigour for jews to tell a catholic Pope what he should and shouldn’t do?

Fill in the gaps for me - what am I missing.

Oh every Jew in the world has heard of Pius XII, but sadly, only to what they want to believe and not the truth of what really happened.

 

[Kaninchen]

The pope protested particularly against the deportations of Jews in Slovakia, Hungary, and vichy, France, since these were formerly Catholic countries where Fascists had gained control and they still had a majority of Catholic citizens.

Citation?

Are you aware, by the way, of who led the Slovakian government at the time or anything about its history during the period?

In Hungary, the Nunciature used thousands of blank and forged forms to help Jews escape.

You seem to appear to believe that I’ve been saying that the Church and Pius saved no Jews. I’ve not been saying this (read the thread that I linked to in my first post on this thread) at all. What I’ve been saying is that many of the arguments we see posted here in defense of Pius are less defensible than Pius himself - in particular the ‘800,000’.

It’s interesting that I’ve not come across an official Church statement about the 800,000 or the trees for that matter. These things have a life of their own on the internet and unofficial apologetic sites but they are divorced from reality - divorced from possibility.

As such, I would argue, they detract from the case for Pius rather than add to it.

Not only that but the suggestion that these arguments should be accepted otherwise one knows nothing or one is just out to blacken the name of Pius XII is both absurd and simplistic.

 

[Ag_not]

I’d agree with the idea that Pius is a matter for Catholics.

Good. Because it is.

Others are, I would argue, free to comment when questions under discussion involve them. The OP is about Pius and Jews, so only Catholics should be allowed to comment?

How does Pope Benedict putting forward Pope Pius for beatification affect you in any way whatsoever?

And if it’s about Pope Pius doing more in WW2, if he saved one jew or 800,000 jews, should he not be given credit for this? If even one jewish life was saved because of his actions, is that not cause enough for celebration?

And if the forest doesnt exist, or he saved 25 jews, not 800, 000 jews, so what? He did a lot more during his papacy to save people than you’ll ever do in your entire life time, that’s for sure.

A part of my family were wiped off the face of the earth in Jasenovac - I’ll give you the details and you can write your religious leaders and ask why they haven’t spoken up for the Romani in their states, provinces and countries. You can also ask them why they didn’t show up, support or help fund several Holocaust Memorials for the Romani and why they objected to Israeli kids learning about the extermination of the Romani in case it watered down their exclusivity.

Your time would be much better served doing this than trying to discredit a Pope who has done more to save his fellow human beings than any of us here ever will do.