Pope Pius Display Includes Rabbi's Thank You

[Kaninchen]

How does Pope Benedict putting forward Pope Pius for beatification affect you in any way whatsoever?

I’ve merely been responding to a thread about Pius and Jews on a message board, I’ve said nothing whatsoever about Pius XII being beatified.

And if it’s about Pope Pius doing more in WW2, if he saved one jew or 800,000 jews, should he not be given credit for this? If even one jewish life was saved because of his actions, is that not cause enough for celebration?

I think you’re picking a fight with the wrong person.

Your time would be much better served doing this than trying to discredit a Pope who has done more to save his fellow human beings than any of us here ever will do.

And yours would be better spent reading what people say before telling them you know how they should be spending their time. Then you might find an example of me ‘trying to discredit a Pope’ to go along with your statement that it’s been how I’ve been spending my time.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Golda Meir
Albert Einstein
Moshe Sharett
Rabbi Issac Herzog
and inumerable others publicly expressed their gratitude to Pius.
In his1967 book “The Last Three Popes and The Jews”, the Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide (who served as Israeli Consul in Milan and interviewed Italian holocaust survivors) declared Pius XII was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as much as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.
In response to the new attacks on Pius XII, several Jewish scholars have spoken out recently. Sir Martin Gilbert told an interviewer that Pius XII deserves not blame but thanks.
In September 1945, Leon Kubowizky, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, personally thanked the pope for his interventions and the World Jewish Congress donated $20,000 to Vatican charities in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.

If your own respectable Jewish people feel this way toward the pope, aren’t you missing something?

 

[Kaninchen]

Golda Meir
Albert Einstein
Moshe Sharett
Rabbi Issac Herzog
and inumerable others publicly expressed their gratitude to Pius.
In his1967 book “The Last Three Popes and The Jews”, the Israeli diplomat Pinchas Lapide (who served as Israeli Consul in Milan and interviewed Italian holocaust survivors) declared Pius XII was instrumental in saving at least 700,000, but probably as much as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.
In response to the new attacks on Pius XII, several Jewish scholars have spoken out recently. Sir Martin Gilbert told an interviewer that Pius XII deserves not blame but thanks.
In September 1945, Leon Kubowizky, Secretary General of the World Jewish Congress, personally thanked the pope for his interventions and the World Jewish Congress donated $20,000 to Vatican charities in recognition of the work of the Holy See in rescuing Jews from Fascist and Nazi persecutions.

If your own respectable Jewish people feel this way toward the pope, aren’t you missing something?

No but you’re doing a marvelous job of missing the point, so I’ll try once again.

Nowhere have I suggested that Pius was some kind of bad guy, nowhere have I said that he was ‘Hitler’s Pope’, nowhere have I said that he saved no Jews - the most I’ve said from all these points of view was that whether he might have said more was arguable (in other words there are arguments to be made on both sides).

What I’ve taken issue with is the way in which he is defended by some of his defenders - note the phrase I’ve used on a number of occasions that some of the defenses are less defensible than Pius himself. I’ve also said that, if somebody says, for example, that ‘he might have said more’, they’re not saying that ‘he was Hitler’s Pope’, merely that he ‘might have said more’ so that pretending that they’ve said that he was ‘Hitler’s Pope’ isn’t a relevant way of responding.

Lapide’s 800,000 is not supported by any historian of the era - try, for example (I mention him because you’ve mentioned him), Martin Gilbert’s (pretty exhaustive and rather harrowing) book ‘The Holocaust’ to find the ‘800,000’.

So, try to stop pretending that me saying that the ‘800,000’ figure is untenable means that I think Pius was a bad guy. Meanwhile, no matter how many leading Jewish figures you find who say that Pius was a good guy, it won’t establish the ‘800,000’.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

**POPE PIUS SAVED 800,000 JEWS IF NOT MORE. I HAVE GIVEN YOU SEVERAL PEOPLE CONFIRMING THIS, YET YOU STILL QUESTION IT AND IGNORE WHAT I SAY. **I suggest you go read a book or two about your own kind and what they say about this wonderful pope. You will find the same numbers in the books written by your own kind. You are beating a dead horse here with your denial of the pope’s saving the lives of your people 800,000 times if not more. I haven’t heard you once say you are grateful, and you should be.

 

[Kaninchen]

**POPE PIUS SAVED 800,000 JEWS IF NOT MORE. I HAVE GIVEN YOU SEVERAL PEOPLE CONFIRMING THIS, YET YOU STILL QUESTION IT AND IGNORE WHAT I SAY. **I suggest you go read a book or two about your own kind and what they say about this wonderful pope. You will find the same numbers in the books written by your own kind. You are beating a dead horse here with your denial of the pope’s saving the lives of your people 800,000 times if not more. I haven’t heard you once say you are grateful, and you should be.

Have you worked out why Israeli commandos didn’t attack Germany?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Have you worked out why Israeli commandos didn’t attack Germany?

Yes, I knew it all along, and I was kidding when I said it and your sarcasm will get you nowhere. I have taught you about Pius XII and I hope you learned something.

 

[Kaninchen]

Yes, I knew it all along, and I was kidding when I said it and your sarcasm will get you nowhere. I have taught you about Pius XII and I hope you learned something.

There’s no answer to that - well, no answer that wouldn’t invite the intervention of a moderator getting cross about ‘not being charitable’.

 

[Ag_not]

I haven’t heard you once say you are grateful, and you should be.

When Keneally went to interview one of the first lot of survivors for his book, Schildler’s Arc, he got told unceremoniously that the guy (Oscar) made plenty of money out of us jews and was no saint

The guy and his family were **directly **saved by Schindler, and got to the States and started a new life with his family intact and spared the ravages of nazi horrors, and all he could say was Schindler was no saint and made plenty of money out of the jews. I’ll bet the guy had worked out to the last dime what Schindler owed him for cheap labor Not a word of thanks.

There’s just no pleasing some people

 

[Kaninchen]

When Keneally went to interview one of the first lot of survivors for his book, Schildler’s Arc, he got told unceremoniously that the guy (Oscar) made plenty of money out of us jews and was no saint

The guy and his family were **directly **saved by Schindler, and got to the States and started a new life with his family intact and spared the ravages of nazi horrors, and all he could say was Schindler was no saint and made plenty of money out of the jews. I’ll bet the guy had worked out to the last dime what Schindler owed him for cheap labor Not a word of thanks.

There’s just no pleasing some people

:getholy: :juggle:

 

[cathopologist]

Who are the ‘some like’?

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you doubting he’s even Jewish or a Rabbi?

Who said anything about ‘pretending’?

Apparently, you did.

Meanwhile, you found a tiny group of marginalized, alienated, teenagers from Soviet backgrounds pretending to be Nazis and I’m supposed to believe that there’s some underground Jewish Nazi movement?

Indeed, the group you linked to but they are not in Neo-Nazi gangs in US prisons are they?

There are some misguided Jews in neo-nazi gangs in U.S prisons. If you have watched Nat Geo’s “Lockdown”, there was a Jew who belonged to a gang called Nazi Low Riders, if i recalled correctly, and claimed to be Jewish. He was recruited not because of his race, rather because of his built and him not wanting to be marginalized by other race gangs in the prison.

Again, this is solely up to you to believe. You don’t have to take my words for it, as i understand from other arguements in this thread, you’d deny any fact anyway.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you doubting he’s even Jewish or a Rabbi?

You used the term ‘some like’ which suggests that there are others and I’m asking who they are.

Apparently, you did.

Where?

Again, this is solely up to you to believe. You don’t have to take my words for it, as i understand from other arguements in this thread, you’d deny any fact anyway.

Do you think that foot-stamping and door-slamming really suits you?

 

[cathopologist]

You used the term ‘some like’ which suggests that there are others and I’m asking who they are.

Do a little research and you will be able to come up with results. You’re a smart chap, i’m sure you can do more than me. For instance, look up Norman Finkelstein, a Jew whom Israel has denied entry because they suspected him of having contacts with elements ‘hostile’ to Israel. Why? Because he wrote a book that criticized Israel of using perceived anti-Semitism as a weapon to stifle criticism and because of his anti-zionist opinions of Israel.

Where?

I see that you are blind to your own quotes.

Do you think that foot-stamping and door-slamming really suits you?

No, honestly, it doesn’t. But i don’t think denial suits you either. You’re far smarter than that.

 

[Kaninchen]

Do a little research and you will be able to come up with results.

Hang on, it’s up to me to find evidence for whatever you assert? I think not.

You’re a smart chap

I don’t have the physiology to be a ‘smart chap’.

i’m sure you can do more than me. For instance, look up Norman Finkelstein, a Jew whom Israel has denied entry because they suspected him of having contacts with elements ‘hostile’ to Israel. Why? Because he wrote a book that criticized Israel of using perceived anti-Semitism as a weapon to stifle criticism and because of his anti-zionist opinions of Israel.

The trouble is that you started this (post #74) with:

There are also Jews who deny the Holocaust.

So far, after my attempts to get you to tell me who they are, you’ve come up with a small group of alienated and marginalized teenage Russian immigrants to Israel (who don’t seem to have said anything one way or another about whether the Holocaust happened), Moshe Aryeh Friedman who denies that more than 1 million were killed and Finkelstein who, by the way, doesn’t deny the Holocaust or the numbers.

Now, supposedly, it’s up to me to do the research to prove your assertion.

I see that you are blind to your own quotes.

You’re right.

Of course, since they were not members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, they were, actually, pretending to be Nazis.

No, honestly, it doesn’t. But i don’t think denial suits you either. You’re far smarter than that.

Throughout the thread, there’s been a much simpler way of stopping my denial of the 800,000 and the trees than chasing teenage scandals, prisoners only accessible on ‘Nat Geo’ and Jews who, supposedly, deny the Holocaust.

Tell me ‘which Jews and where’.

 

[cathopologist]

Hang on, it’s up to me to find evidence for whatever you assert? I think not.

I have already given you the lead. You think a forum is a place where the lazy come to get answers?

I don’t have the physiology to be a ‘smart chap’.

Well, i didn’t know you were a lady. My apologies.

The trouble is that you started this (post #74) with:There are also Jews who deny the Holocaust.So far, after my attempts to get you to tell me who they are, you’ve come up with a small group of alienated and marginalized teenage Russian immigrants to Israel (who don’t seem to have said anything one way or another about whether the Holocaust happened), Moshe Aryeh Friedman who denies that more than 1 million were killed and Finkelstein who, by the way, doesn’t deny the Holocaust or the numbers.

Now, supposedly, it’s up to me to do the research to prove your assertion.

The names are considered ‘apostates’ by Jewish standards because they have gone against the Jewish norm of questioning the motives of their own people. The Russian Jews are Jews no matter how you would like to put it. Both Friedman and Finkelstein are also Jews, but called ‘freaks’ by other Jews because of their doubts. And yes, there are Jews who deny the Holocaust. As i said, do your own research. Read books.

Of course, since they were not members of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, they were, actually, pretending to be Nazis.

They were not attending some Halloween party. They actually targetted and attacked Jews. How can anyone miss what the report says?

Swastikas, neo-Nazi gangs and attacks on Jews. Where? In Israel

Throughout the thread, there’s been a much simpler way of stopping my denial of the 800,000 and the trees than chasing teenage scandals, prisoners only accessible on ‘Nat Geo’ and Jews who, supposedly, deny the Holocaust.

Tell me ‘which Jews and where’.

You have a convenient way of denying facts that your very own people can be misguided and not actually consider historical facts of which other Jews have brought forward in defense of Pope Pius. As mentioned, nothing which Gentiles present to you is of any importance - because truly, you are in a world of your own. Which is fine, but when evidence suggests otherwise, you’re really not doing yourself any favour.

 

[Soutane]

It was a joke. I’ll not apologise for making a joke. Read some of the toxic, downright EVIL things that have been said on this forum and then you will understand why I made it. You are very new to this forum and have not seen the horrible threads made in the past few months and years. Thankfully most are deleted and the offenders banned. I will apologise if you were offended but that is all I will do. Trying to lighten the mood of what will (mark my words) become a deleted thread if some other members jump on board, is not a crime.

Once again, sorry if you were offended but thats all.

I’ve lurked here for years so don’t try and pull rank on me,pal.How on earth could I read deleted posts?I’m certain those who made “toxic and evil” posts have been banned and that those that do will similarly be turfed-so put your little tin badge back in the crackerjack box.

 

[Soutane]

What 800,000? Where?

You see, just because somebody (Jewish or not) said something at some time and this has passed from one Catholic apologetic website to another, doesn’t make it true. So, tell us, what 800,000? Where?

As I’ve said before, I think that some claims put forward in defense of Pius are a lot less defensible than Pius himself.

That’s all very interesting, I’m sure. Quite what it’s got to do with what I’ve been saying, I don’t know. Is saying that one doesn’t accept some of the claims about the wonderfulness of Pius the same as making ‘false claims’ about him?

Evidence of Golda Meir and the 865,000?

Where have I condemned Pius XII? That’s not what I’ve been doing if you read what I’ve said.

Kaninchen,I told you that you could get the answer to your question about the 850,000+saved-Rabbi David Dalin’s book The Myth of Hitlers Pope,How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis,and with your own words stated that you have no interest in reading it and made some comment that you were sure that he was a nice guy but…and yet you continuously ask about evidence for the “800,000”.I gave you the source,offered to buy the book AND send it to you if you’d read it.You declined.I question your sincerity.

 

[Soutane]

People have been questioning the 6 million number since the period itself, the whole thing has been researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked and researched/attacked.

I ask which 800,000 Jews and where and I’m told to shut up and be grateful by somebody who wonders why Mossad and Israel didn’t fight Nazi Germany.

AND I told you where to get the answer.

 

[Kaninchen]

I have already given you the lead. You think a forum is a place where the lazy come to get answers?

After a nearly a decade and a half of message boards and lists, there’s quite a lot I know about message board behavior.

As i said, do your own research. Read books.

See above.

You have a convenient way of denying facts that your very own people can be misguided and not actually consider historical facts of which other Jews have brought forward in defense of Pope Pius. As mentioned, nothing which Gentiles present to you is of any importance - because truly, you are in a world of your own. Which is fine, but when evidence suggests otherwise, you’re really not doing yourself any favour.

Which Jews and where?

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen,I told you that you could get the answer to your question about the 850,000+saved-Rabbi David Dalin’s book The Myth of Hitlers Pope,How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis,and with your own words stated that you have no interest in reading it and made some comment that you were sure that he was a nice guy but…and yet you continuously ask about evidence for the “800,000”.I gave you the source,offered to buy the book AND send it to you if you’d read it.You declined.I question your sincerity.

Which Jews and where?

 

[Kaninchen]

AND I told you where to get the answer.

Which Jews and where?

You’ve read the book, tell me.